FNB - The trouble is that the peasants became revolting and armed themselves. Yeats put it very well:

The beggars have changed places
But the lash goes on.

From Jack Buchanan to Noel Coward, Rex Harrison, Cary Grant, the English Gent (not the i-gent, who seems to be a curious  American/Oriental reinvention) set the example, which the rest of the world has emulated; it is evident in the naval and military uniforms, still current. These things derived from an acknowledged elite, which, FNB, you affect to despise; yet youu still seek out the same patterns that they used. Kindly explain your precepts, before you blow off more quasi-commumist spume!

Last edited by NJS (2012-01-22 10:06:24)

4F Hepcat wrote:

NJS wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

THey should be able to rely on old world companies to kit them out properly. Here's the thing. If you aren't from the right background with the right tastes and values, then you are an object of ridicule and scorn, ultimately ostracized by "people like us". However, isn't it also that "people like us" are exclusionary snobs and the wrong people will never be accepted no matter what, so why shouldn't they get whatever they want and conspicuously consume?

Should those who can never compete with the elite bother to try or should they establish their own counter or parrallel culture?

The very great thing about the Britain that I remember with affectionate pride is that there was always room for more 'people like us', provided that they made the effort. Brummell is the greatest example of social mobility in action - grandfather a valet and father a sweet shop and lodging house keeper, made good; result: the style icon of his time, arguably of modern times, as none has ever really matched. The trouble with modern celebrities, such as the Beckhams is that they revel in the contrast between their resolute ignorance and their extreme wealth and popular influence.

Modern celebrity culture is in distinct contrast to that of original jet-set. In particular, those who qualify for celebrity status. Burton and Taylor were perhaps the biggest stars of the jet set celebrity age, adored and photographed from one bar to brawl in Monaco, Paris and Hollywood and back again. Burton was intelligent to the extreme, we simply have no modern equivalent.

Back in this day, footballers were lads who drank lots of beer and ate egg and chips after the game. Now, they are pillars of adulation and emulation. You make a good point about Beckham, a mere pretty-boy who has failed to deliver other than fame, fortune and celebrity.

A celebrity, is a celebrity is a celebrity.

Are we doomed? Maybe.

So, if JLP's demographic is this new celebrity class, only a fool would buy into it.

You added that Beckham 'failed to deliver' and I quite agree - all those fatal miskicks - but I bet that, someday soon, the Beckhams will have greatness thrust upon them: Sir David and Lady Beckham - Posh might even break the habit of a lifetime and actually smile. I also agree about Burton: Robert Donat and Richard Burton were probably the best British screen actors of the 20th century. Olivier was variable on screen; although, as Maxim in the Hitchcock 'Rebecca', he was magnificent. Recently seeing an attempted remake with Charles Dance, I just turned it off in slight embarrassment.

Burton and Taylor were excellent in 'The Sandpiper'.

Big Tony wrote:

Old Fogey Forum.

Yea:bring it on for Tom Cruise and that other little runt: Jood Lawr.

NJS wrote:

FNB - The trouble is that the peasants became revolting and armed themselves. Yeates put it very well:

The beggars have changed places
But the lash goes on.

From Jack Buchanan to Noel Coward, Rex Harrison, Cary Grant, the English Gent (not the i-gent, who seems to be a curious  American/Oriental reinvention) set the example, which the rest of the world has emulated; it is evident in the naval and military uniforms, still current. These things derived from an acknowledged elite, which, FNB, you affect to despise; yet youu still seek out the same patterns that they used. Kindly explain your precepts, before you blow off more quasi-commumist spume!

Never was a man more misunderstood. I am posing the questions, why would people who would never fit in chase an elite around when they could establish their own ruling standard? I would hope you are not so defensive about your ideology that you cannot consider why the devil would play the tunes it does.  The Beckhams would not be super stars in their own right but quaint wannabes if they dressed like the upper middle class and accepted a biscuit and pat on the head every now and then. Meanwhile, you can put a business suit on Jay Z and he will always be an awkward ghetto kid. Which direction is best and for whom? At least one take away lesson is that the symbols of class may be physical but class itself is intangible. I would know someone from my class if he were homeless in the park.

I am interested in clothes and clothing theory similar to James Laver. I was interested in Anglo-American military history before I ever wondered about clothing and have no doubts that interest in uniforms played a role. I dont know how different my tastes were on a broad scale but I admit there has been a considerable amount of fine tuning.

About being a communist, the red scare is dead and your statement is absurd enough to not demand a statement.

Film Noir Buff wrote:

NJS wrote:

FNB - The trouble is that the peasants became revolting and armed themselves. Yeates put it very well:

The beggars have changed places
But the lash goes on.

From Jack Buchanan to Noel Coward, Rex Harrison, Cary Grant, the English Gent (not the i-gent, who seems to be a curious  American/Oriental reinvention) set the example, which the rest of the world has emulated; it is evident in the naval and military uniforms, still current. These things derived from an acknowledged elite, which, FNB, you affect to despise; yet youu still seek out the same patterns that they used. Kindly explain your precepts, before you blow off more quasi-commumist spume!

Never was a man more misunderstood. I am posing the questions, why would people who would never fit in chase an elite around when they could establish their own ruling standard? I would hope you are not so defensive about your ideology that you cannot consider why the devil would play the tunes it does.  The Beckhams would not be super stars in their own right but quaint wannabes if they dressed like the upper middle class and accepted a biscuit and pat on the head every now and then. Meanwhile, you can put a business suit on Jay Z and he will always be an awkward ghetto kid. Which direction is best and for whom? At least one take away lesson is that the symbols of class may be physical but class itself is intangible. I would know someone from my class if he were homeless in the park.

I am interested in clothes and clothing theory similar to James Laver. I was interested in Anglo-American military history before I ever wondered about clothing and have no doubts that interest in uniforms played a role. I dont know how different my tastes were on a broad scale but I admit there has been a considerable amount of fine tuning.

About being a communist, the red scare is dead and your statement is absurd enough to not demand a statement.

I often find that North Americans (even of British descent) just do not even seem to see my kind of humour. I am not exactly a troll but I can understand the pleasure to be found in rattling cages, squeaking the door's hinges and so on and so forth. It's only a bit of fun, with tongue firmly in cheek. It's a bit like the fun to be had in ringing door bells and then running away to watch the effect unobserved...It's such good fun that it is beyond criticism as being 'childish'.

Last edited by NJS (2012-01-22 08:59:45)

^FNB - That's a new one! Very difficult for me to say how accurate it is! Bing! bong!

NJS wrote:

The door bell game is called 'ding dong ditch', by the way, and is just about a worldwide phenomenon.

It's 'Knock down Ginger' round my way, squire.

^ Very good. Manchester City sneaked a win at the last ditch and old red nose also managed to win at The Arsenal.

An American scored a hat trick in the Premier League for the first time and, even though he is from Texas, he is not a loud mouth or a braggart. He is very modest man whose talents usually do not get the recognition they deserve.

Kingstonian wrote:

^ Very good. Manchester City sneaked a win at the last ditch and old red nose also managed to win at The Arsenal.

An American scored a hat trick in the Premier League for the first time and, even though he is from Texas, he is not a loud mouth or a braggart. He is very modest man whose talents usually do not get the recognition they deserve.

Dempsey is a great guy and a fantastic footballer.  I met his brother on a trip to TX--simple folks.  (Simple meaning uncomplicated or pretentious - not a perjorative.) I hope we have more just like him who play in the EPL.  The rumor is that he does not want to move on from Fulham.

United very much derserve the win - City a little less so.  (I am biased but I believe this accurrate.)

NJS, I think you underrate Beckham both as a player and a man.  I have grown to admire him.

g- wrote:

Kingstonian wrote:

^ Very good. Manchester City sneaked a win at the last ditch and old red nose also managed to win at The Arsenal.

An American scored a hat trick in the Premier League for the first time and, even though he is from Texas, he is not a loud mouth or a braggart. He is very modest man whose talents usually do not get the recognition they deserve.

Dempsey is a great guy and a fantastic footballer.  I met his brother on a trip to TX--simple folks.  (Simple meaning uncomplicated or pretentious - not a perjorative.) I hope we have more just like him who play in the EPL.  The rumor is that he does not want to move on from Fulham.

United very much derserve the win - City a little less so.  (I am biased but I believe this accurrate.)

NJS, I think you underrate Beckham both as a player and a man.  I have grown to admire him.

It's not him so much as that ghastly wife of his but he made some terrible booboos at crucial moments for England.

Last edited by NJS (2012-01-22 15:18:29)

Kingstonian wrote:

g- wrote:

Dempsey is a great guy and a fantastic footballer.  I met his brother on a trip to TX--simple folks.  (Simple meaning uncomplicated or pretentious - not a perjorative.) I hope we have more just like him who play in the EPL.  The rumor is that he does not want to move on from Fulham.

Dempsey is a very good ambassador for Americans and hugely underrated. He has carried Fulham in many games when they often have no other source for goals.

Yes.  As an odd American who group with your game--I could not have hoped for more.  I hope he stays with Fulham it would be a great story.

g- wrote:

NJS wrote:

g- wrote:

Dempsey is a great guy and a fantastic footballer.  I met his brother on a trip to TX--simple folks.  (Simple meaning uncomplicated or pretentious - not a perjorative.) I hope we have more just like him who play in the EPL.  The rumor is that he does not want to move on from Fulham.

United very much derserve the win - City a little less so.  (I am biased but I believe this accurrate.)

NJS, I think you underrate Beckham both as a player and a man.  I have grown to admire him.

It's not him so much as that ghastly wife of his but he made some terrible booboos at crucial moments for England.

No love for his wife either, but I think Becks has really matured over time--sad he didn't see some of the things which now appear most plain to him.

I can't even remember the game now but I do recall an international match (was it a world cup), which I watched with someone in a pub in Holborn when Becks muffed a tie-break shoot-out and a shocked, hurt, let down and miserable, little groan could be heard. I'm not sure what he can do now: model underpants until his bottom sags and manage Fulham? After the knighthood that is - that will be along soon - and he will join the other modern British knights such as Sir Fat Poof Elton John and Sir Mick Botox-Shagger. The existence of 'Posh, Lady Beckham', with her sour face and six inch platforms, would probably mean that I'd go back just for any of my own family's ceremonies - and hot foot it back here asap. Talk about a nation losing its grip. Her Maj's diamond jubilee is looming and, much as I think that she has selflessly devoted herslf to the nation, she has also presided over a family which (excepting Phil the Greek) largely comprises useless, shameful and dutiless creeps and she has also been the figurehead of a crumbling social and economic nationhood - so I am not sure that there is much to celebrate, really.

There are sometimes comparisons between Becks and George Best but I don't recall Best wasting opportunities, let alone slipping and miskicking the ball like a total TWAT.