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#1 2012-02-20 00:36:16

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Hi guys I've been reading up a bit on George Russell recently, I was wondering if any of the players on this site knew anything of his theory? I really can't stump up for the cost of the book at the moment, so hopefully some of you may have an insight?

Cheers!


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#2 2012-02-20 00:39:34

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#3 2012-02-20 01:43:23

Harpo
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Funnily enough, I'm just reading "Coltrane - The Story of a Sound" by Ben Ratliff and there is quite a bit about Russel in that, as background to Coltrane's modal direction.

Basically, Russel, who was a drummer and had been a be-bop composer, did an analysis on scales in use in western music - major scales, French Impressionist music, be-bop scales - and concluded that western music was largly based on the Ionian mode in C. He suggested that using the Lydian mode would be better, as it covered more chords and would give jazz players more harmonic choices in the scales they could use. He didn't come up with a prescriptive system, just suggested that exploring this mode would open up more possibilities. This, of course, was right up Coltrane's strasse.

It's quite a good book, the Ben Ratliff one.


Randy lower-class trifler

 

#4 2012-02-20 01:46:10

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Cheers Harp, I've just been recording some stuff in Lydian and Mixolydian, and have to say lines sit better with each other, in fact you can improvise two bass lines over each-other and they don't seem to clash. Very cool. I'm enjoying this! I may pick up the book you mention if it is less than the theory book which is something silly like $145

Last edited by Oo Bop Sh'bam (2012-02-20 01:47:29)


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#5 2012-02-20 01:50:24

Harpo
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From: West Wales
Posts: 3394

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Yeah, basically this is what Russel was saying - it allows you to develop musical ideas for a longer period without having to worry about changes all the time, because you've got a greater range of harmonic "rightness" without having clashes (at least that's how my mind mangles his idea). You can explore at greater length and it creates a more meditative, deeper music.

Niceness!

The Coltrane book is £8.99, by the way.

Last edited by Harpo (2012-02-20 01:51:15)


Randy lower-class trifler

 

#6 2012-02-20 01:59:19

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

That's more in my current budget.

I have to say, and this might sound a bit weird to anyone that doesn't play, I felt more at peace after playing in the modes of the Lydian, usually when I finish writing some music I feel a bit pissed off, I thought that was just because it takes a lot of concentration, but after jamming something in this method, I actually felt really rather calm and relaxed. Odd stuff indeed. I suppose that is why the effect of Kind of Blue is so relaxing? Because it was written with this theory at the forefront of it.

Last edited by Oo Bop Sh'bam (2012-02-20 02:00:05)


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#7 2012-02-20 02:03:25

Harpo
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

That doesn't sound weird to me at all. It sounds entirely reasonable.

Playing the Blues has the same effect on me. And the Blues, it could be argued, is a modal form.


Randy lower-class trifler

 

#8 2012-02-20 02:11:14

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Blues isn't a great deal different from the mixolydian apart from that flattened third, actually, I don't know how easy this is on the horn, but on the guitar if you slightly bend the flattened third, you get a better tone, I read that somewhere.

Also I found after reading neither the natural or sharpened 4th was the note Russell was really after in mathematical terms, if you bend the natural 4th you get a more pleasing tone. Which actually sits next to the sharpened 4th quite nicely. I'm all for getting as many notes as I can! I know Monk used to play notes in unison, because you can't obviously bend the notes on a piano.


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#9 2012-02-20 03:13:03

4F Hepcat
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

I'm reading Wynton Marsalis's 'Moving To Higher Ground' and in this book he puts forward the position that the blues is a universal language of empathy across all cultures and is an in-built mechanism for non-verbal communication that served us in tribal cultures when groups with different languages met each other. Instead of conflict the blues invited us to sway, dance and possibly procrastinate with the biological aim of enriching the gene pool. Without getting trite about it, this could be argued what Kerouac was talking about in his spontaneous poetics when he rapped lyrical on about the one note that would take us to God. David Byrne was also exploring similar territory when he was trying to get to the remnants of essential primitive thought in the world funk grooves and freaky dancing of 79-83.

The blues also seems to operate as an essential release mechanism for when times are bad. Take for example, the Liverpool poet Adrian Henri, for a time he wrote only in a blues format as his position was only the blues was a sufficient emotional vehicle to express the demise and hard times being experienced on the banks of the Mersey in the 80s. Art Pepper talks of the blues being the only music played in San Quentin, of course, Johnny Cash may have something to say about this.

Miles ultimate verdict on modal jazz that it was too limiting and he considered 'Trane went too far out in the end. I've heard criticism that modal jazz is only the practice of scales and works for an album or two. I don’t know as I am not a musician, I just dig the music.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#10 2012-02-20 03:21:42

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Yeah I tend to agree that most systems are limiting, Classic theory is, I suppose this one will be too, um I find the blues is limiting, I wish Jimi had stayed alive cause I think he reached a point of being fed-up with the Blues and was looking to break through to something else. Who knows, I suppose the only thing that isn't limiting is the imagination and the vision to move inot something else. God knows, I wish I could play better, then maybe I'd know!


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#11 2012-02-20 05:17:08

Harpo
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From: West Wales
Posts: 3394

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Indeed - set forms can be limiting, though it can be amazing what you can get out of even just one chord and a six note scale.

However, something like the Blues, to me, goes beyond the actual form and can inform the sensibility of playing in different contexts - whether it's a show tune, ballad, or free modal exploration. It's as much a feel and an attitude towards playing as it is a set of changes and a scale.

I was listening to a programme about Gwilym Symcock, the improvsing pianist. He's often labelled as Jazz, because he improvises - but as he says himself, he's not really a Jazz player. I was trying to put my finger on why it's not Jazz (his stuff leaves me cold, TBH) and it's this - there's no Blues in his music, whatsoever. Another way of saying that might be - there's no Afro element, neither rhythmically or melodically. And that's what I like.

The minor third step over a major chord is always a winner!


Randy lower-class trifler

 

#12 2012-02-20 05:46:37

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

I think it helps as a way of musicians to jam with each other, but when it comes to composing and you're doing odd changes and adding notes from outside the scale I guess you really have to sit down with people and learn a piece to get the most out of music.


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#13 2012-02-20 07:42:21

4F Hepcat
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#14 2012-02-20 07:57:32

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

If you're too white, the fish don't bite.


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#15 2012-02-20 08:03:28

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

I'd say that chaps rhythm is pretty straight, and boring. Some people click along like metronomes. It's why I never really got into Metal, it is played so straight.


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#16 2012-02-20 10:11:15

Harpo
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From: West Wales
Posts: 3394

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?


Randy lower-class trifler

 

#17 2012-02-21 02:02:04

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Funny little bit on this were Miles talks about a lot of white jazz musicians playing behind the beat and dragging the tempo down, quite interesting. He was like the Jeremy Clarkson of Jazz, with these broad comments on racial stereotypes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjGnyUSa14&feature=related

take it to 7:09 secs


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#18 2012-02-21 02:12:20

4F Hepcat
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Posts: 14333

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

A lot of Miles hip-street-talk was affected to hide his thoroughly middle class and classically trained back-ground.

The reality was that his bands were made up of the best musicians available regardless of race: Mulligan, Evans and McLaughlin are examples of white cats he played with.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#19 2012-02-21 02:16:05

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

I have to say every person I've played with had their own sense on timing, best band I played in had a drummer really ahead of the beat, and me playing way behind. That's what makes a group of musicians work, that idea of complimenting. Oh and he was white, the drummer that is. I understand what Miles is saying though, and excluding the point about it being 'the white way', he is actually right.

Last edited by Oo Bop Sh'bam (2012-02-21 02:17:15)


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#20 2012-02-21 02:23:59

woofboxer
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Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Great little film thanks OO Bop.  He had certainly left ivy far behind by the time that interview was filmed. Snakeskin trousers anyone?


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
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#21 2012-02-21 02:31:45

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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Posts: 4067

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Haha, yeah, I never gave those interviews a chance because it was outside and away from the period I like, but he shares a lot about his earlier years, which is just as interesting when spoken by a man in snakeskin trousers sporting a wet perm. I think Miles is one of those people who you hope for to be a really cool guy, but it is safe to say, he is a bit of a dick. Not to take away from his music. An artist's prerequisite isn't to be a nice person I guess. It's not just the race thing, which you can understand to a degree, but he just makes generalised statements, and excuses pimping a lot of the time.

Last edited by Oo Bop Sh'bam (2012-02-21 02:32:43)


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#22 2012-02-21 07:23:25

Liam Mac
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From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

I've been trying to find the interview from about this time where MD talks to an interviewer about his paintings. Very funny interview. If I find it, I'll post it.

 

#23 2012-02-21 07:45:59

Oo Bop Sh'bam
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From: within.
Posts: 4067

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

I've seen it, it is funny.

''And this is a pimp"


''If I can't share my faith in Christ here, I'd just as soon not have to put up with people advocating drug use.''

 

#24 2012-02-21 08:13:39

Harpo
The Best In The West
From: West Wales
Posts: 3394

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Is that the one from "The Tube", around the time that "Tutu" was released? I remember him going through some of his paintings then. He was wearing a sort of gold lame kaftan with the wet perm "back-of-head" hair. That was fairly hilarious, as I recall.

I've also seen an American interview from around that time, where the interviewer says, for a laugh "I see you're still shopping at Brooks Brothers" - which was brave, I thought. Miles even cracked a smile - something you rarely saw. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a person who works so hard not to smile as Miles.


Randy lower-class trifler

 

#25 2012-02-21 08:14:10

Sports Fan
Member
Posts: 389

Re: The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization - Harpo? Anyone?

Miles Davis Interview On His Art And Paintings Part 1 June 29, 1988:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aplp6pPVvCg

 
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