I'm on a bit of a warpath lately with mens clothing choices and iGents so forgive me if this sounds confrontational, Ia sure you I am all bark and no bite.

Many men are color blind. I have a suit with pink stripes many men think are red and all women know are pink.

Even the men who are not color blind are horrible with color and very indecisive. They match things in the very way they think they are not supposed to which results in several tonally incompatible reds or blues.

I do not dress men for a living but from what I can see of mens choices, they live in fear of assertion but also of insignificance. Many can become very angry about their blandness and repackage it as conservatism. Interesting if only because some of the self assured but conservative people that I know wear very bold clothing. Apparently, the consoling label for a lack of confidence, is conservatism.

That vast majority of shirts cloths are combinations of blue and white. Almost certainly because it's the easiest color set to drop a tie on. Somehow, men are convinced there is a formula to what sort of shirt/tie combination is acceptable. I've seen men get confused, even apprehensive when I drop a lime green tie on a pink/blue striped shirt. They say, "You cant do that". Really?

Do you spot the under-shades in mens blue shirting for them, or do your customers notice it?


Are yellow or mustardy ties big sellers in the UK?

Why do you think you or your customers are looking to compliment shirts at all? Are we supposed to be a walking, cultural work of art? Are they interested in mesmerizing people vs  shocking them silly with a teal and purple tie?

Interesting stuff.


What are the main currents for UK tastes? What drives these men in terms of colors and fabrics? What touchstones do you feel that they (or you) consider to make them fit in or stand out; and be admired?


I agree about men and color but added to it are cultural approaches. A Russian man is going to think certain color combinations are amazing that will turn off an American.

I never liked the American mainstream business look and liked the Turnbull and Asser, Harvie and Hudson look very early on. Problem is, I cannot remember why. Aside from the fact that it's a smart look, I cant remember why it excited me, when it shouldnt have. I shouldve been an adherent of the white shirt, navy tie, navy suit look. It may have been because I figured out colors and patterns early on. By the time I was in middle school, I was reading books about the rules of English heraldry. Maybe I inately sensed that real gentlemen, as opposed to movie ones, eschew convention.


Funny, one of the reasons I know H.Lesser never made it big in the American custom market is because it's lack of a finish, which makes it very old money looking also makes it very retro. It ages a man. If you're in a culture that doesn't care or youre pretty, no biggie. However, not a few of my tailor's customers are getting on and have much younger significant others who help them choose fabrics and there is no way they're going to make their men look even older than they already do.

FNB said:
"I agree about men and color but added to it are cultural approaches. A Russian man is going to think certain color combinations are amazing that will turn off an American."

This reminds me of an old article by Chomsky (yes, I hate him), who mentioned that Eskimoes had a multitude of words for snow, because in their world it matters a lot to know the different manifestations of snow. He gave other examples such as phonemes (units of sound), which are different in different  languages,etc.  As far as color, certain societies split the color spectrum different ways, and in memory recall tests, people had trouble remembering colors that did not have a name in their language.  The point was that cultural upbringing in a certain ways blinds you to certain perceptions, while at the same time channels you into certain forms of expression.

To make a long story short, in a homogeneous culture dressing as a form of expression can have a very discrete and tangible effects on those around you, because in a sense you are all "seeing the same things and speaking the same language". In a heterogeneous culture such as I find myself in I'm not sure I can even access, let alone correctly interpret the sartorial cues around me. As far as expressing myself I may try whatever, but as far as what it means or what effect it has, God only knows.

What I do think is that in this "uncertain cues" environment of a US city, people tend to dress more in uniforms as if to reassure themselves or broadcast to those who might not know that "I do indeed belong to THIS group". A spontaneous gesture may easily be misinterpreted in humiliating ways. In a more homogeneous environment where you know where you stand and others know where you stand spontaneity of expression is better understood for what its intent may be, therefore a more comfortable attitude.

Given these givens my preference is to dress appropriately for the occasion knowing that I'm probably missing some important element of my habillement, but confident that it (or another element) may also be missed by a significant proportion of those around me. Consequently, I allow myself a thing or two that "I really like", since ultimately, the only one who cares enough that I "hit it just right" is me.

Last edited by Chévere (2012-03-09 22:29:36)

I thought this was quite a nice palette I don't normally dress in yellows and reds and oranges, but I think this holds together alright.



probably didn't need th pocket square but it's in their anyway.

I'm not sure I'm old enough for the Ascot, nothing worse than someone not dressing their age in my book. But I'd definitely agree on an older chap that it'd be better to loose the madras and put a nice cravat with it. Good call.

Yes it is a vest, and the trousers are cotton.

Also I thought you maybe interested FNB, I've got to do the clothes for this wedding. The groom is having his tails made in Paris but his men are being suited by us, and I spent half of Saturday going through, cravat and waistcoat combinations with his ushers and best man.

They've certainly got one hell of a venue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … dding.html

As broad as my ideas get as concerning clothes, young men trying to dress older suggest their balls have run dry, also, a young guy should have something of a bit of colour and joy about his outfits, again for the same reason, you want to communicate vitality. An ascot on an older guy does the opposite it suggest playfulness in older age. Which is a good thing.

Last edited by Oo Bop Sh'bam (2012-03-11 13:55:19)

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

Oo Bop Sh'bam wrote:

I'm not sure I'm old enough for the Ascot, nothing worse than someone not dressing their age in my book. But I'd definitely agree on an older chap that it'd be better to loose the madras and put a nice cravat with it. Good call.

Yes it is a vest, and the trousers are cotton.

Also I thought you maybe interested FNB, I've got to do the clothes for this wedding. The groom is having his tails made in Paris but his men are being suited by us, and I spent half of Saturday going through, cravat and waistcoat combinations with his ushers and best man.

They've certainly got one hell of a venue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … dding.html

Pfft, Im going to have mine in the Red Fort complete with a squadron of elephants.

No.

You're a dandy and you won't be having one.

Maybe, ala Horsely I will do something like marry myself.

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

No.

You're a dandy and you won't be having one.

Maybe, ala Horsely I will do something like marry myself.

Actually, Horsley was a divorcee.

OIC

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

Actually, Horsley was a divorcee.

OIC

Yes, he was married in his younger days. Ended in tragicomedy as you would expect.

The world is duller place without crazy catz like Horsley around.

Well he did whatever he liked, refreshing when compared to the idiots on the forums running around with photographic proof that something is or isnt done.

ooey - I just picked this up  off the "new books" table at the library. It not the sort of thing I would read in any depth.

It  struck me that it would be of great interest to you - the layout as well as content seems to be relevant to what your musical model generates.


Pantone: The 20th Century in Color by Leatrice Eiseman and Keith Recker


A survey of 100 years of evolving shades and tones offers plenty of images to cherish, if little real insight
Imogen Carter
The Observer, Sunday 13 November 2011

Japanese anime took some of the boldest approaches to the use of colour in the 20th century.

Like many inventions, the Pantone design system was born of frustration. Sick of clients complaining that the colours delivered on their jobs differed from those agreed, Lawrence Herbert, an employee in the early 1960s at Pantone, an American printing company, decided to create a universal colour-matching system for designers, printers and customers. Within a few years his elegant decks of cards featuring tinted, coded rectangles had become ubiquitous in studios worldwide.

More recently the Pantone brand has been making a play for the consumer market. Its product range, featuring the distinctive blocks of colour, even includes a series of mugs in varying shades of brown, a fun wheeze for tea drinkers seeking the perfect brew. How disappointing then that its latest offering, a book charting the evolution of colour during the 20th century, is rather dry in tone with an ugly, old-fashioned layout.

There are, however, ideas and images to cherish in this decade-by-decade gallop through 100 years of (predominantly American) fashion, interiors, toys, art, advertising and products – from Rose O'Neill's giggling Kewpie babies of the early 1900s, to the vivid 1930s Bakelite billiard balls used in American pool halls, or the candy-colours of Japanese anime.

There are also fascinating visual examples of how tastes developed along with social changes: images of Edwardian women in pale, muted ensembles make way for 1920s flappers sporting red lipstick and bright pinks and apricot tones – heralded, we are told, by "American women [being] granted the right to vote … and set afire by the 18th amendment's prohibition of alcohol". While Kate Middleton's outfits hog the headlines today, the book shows Lady Diana in brown corduroys, green wellies and regal red, embodying the Sloane Ranger look of the early 1980s.

But the book's broad focus is its stumbling block. Restricted to 190 pages, the authors are only able to offer school textbook level overviews of each era and generalisations that often don't convince. Why not create a book for each category? Or one for each decade? I was left with more questions than answers by glimpses into the art world's changing relationship with colour, about how Edward Hopper used "rich, promising colours to depict silence and isolation" or why the Cubists rejected the decorative colours of the Fauves.

Yet design geeks or vintage lovers shouldn't dismiss it entirely. While no match for the beauty of the company's trademark swatch books, it does contain a treasure trove of retro images which in turn inspired me to ponder my own history in colour – happy family holidays in a 1970s orange tent, floral Laura Ashley party frocks, a grey school uniform set off by odd fluorescent socks. It's a worthwhile addition to the coffee table pile for that fuzzy glow of nostalgia alone.

===

That review seems a bit sniffy to me but then I'm just an amateur.

If you go to Google books here and buggerise around you can see a fair few pages.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=j3H … mp;f=false

Last edited by fxh (2012-03-11 20:12:15)

Thanks for the heads up on that book fxh, i'll check it out.

I don't have any in my cupboard at the moment. I used to have afew. One an off white / cream DB.

I think they should only be worn done up, and possibly should always be bespoke. I don't have much now where  I need or want to be buttoned up all day. I suppose it depends what you do. In my mind a DB is always done up except when sitting. So that means only looks right  when walking or standing. I don't have much walking and standing where others see me.