Andrew Ramroop: Tailor and proprietor of Maurice Sedwell.

formby wrote:

Andrew Ramroop: Tailor and proprietor of Maurice Sedwell.

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You have to know yourself a bit. Tailors or clothing biz people wear these pied piper outfits to draw the curious man in. However, with the absence of uniformity today, I don't see why men need to find statement or conversation clothes to the extent that they are; and they are.  Maybe I dont like that much trauma with black tie. I think if you really know what youre doing, and get it right on all cylinders + know your audience, this can work. Otherwise it's known in Mexico as-El wrecko di traino.

Most men already look bizarre enough to me that wearing subdued clothes isnt a bad idea. It all settled into designs, patterns and colors to knock the ugly out of them. Every now and then you get someone who has a knack or is so beautiful that they can carry off something extra. Hell, sometimes you get both of those qualities embodied  in the same person.

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

Andrew Ramroop: Tailor and proprietor of Maurice Sedwell.

http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … jacket.jpg

You have to know yourself a bit. Tailors or clothing biz people wear these pied piper outfits to draw the curious man in. However, with the absence of uniformity today, I don't see why men need to find statement or conversation clothes to the extent that they are; and they are.  Maybe I dont like that much trauma with black tie. I think if you really know what youre doing, and get it right on all cylinders + know your audience, this can work. Otherwise it's known in Mexico as-El wrecko di traino.

Most men already look bizarre enough to me that wearing subdued clothes isnt a bad idea. It all settled into designs, patterns and colors to knock the ugly out of them. Every now and then you get someone who has a knack or is so beautiful that they can carry off something extra. Hell, sometimes you get both of those qualities embodied  in the same person.

I'm focusing on the cut/styling more than the cloth choices.

I wouldn't wear a Tartan DJ myself, but since Ramroop is one of Britain's premier tailoring talents I think we need to look at his DB credentials as it were. I'll see if I can find a pic of him wearing a more sedate cloth, so our eyes are less dazzled.

Do the English wear DBs? They always seem to wear them open when they do, going back to that man in "Minder". They wear them open here too, which drives me crazy. I've always liked them, especially when striped. 

What makes tailoring good isn't just the fit and design, it's the attention to certain things assigned values by the groups that frequent the tailoring shop. For instance, a given tailoring shop may make an intrinsically flawed Double Breasted but if everyone in the right positions wears it, then a smart strategy could be to get them too. Not only is perfectionism sometimes a bad choice but often those obsessed with it don't know what to look for anyway. Thus, it's doubly a waste of time. You could end up wearing something which makes you stand out as a one and only, which can have it's drawbacks, especially if you have a marginal personality to begin with.

I see many of the English tailoring firms turn out badly balanced, badly finished DBs. However, unless you're a tailoring aficionado (which we are, here), it doesn't matter because your entire tribe might have the same flaws. These flaws eventually form a band of status.

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

I'm focusing on the cut/styling more than the cloth choices.

I wouldn't wear a Tartan DJ myself, but since Ramroop is one of Britain's premier tailoring talents I think we need to look at his DB credentials as it were. I'll see if I can find a pic of him wearing a more sedate cloth, so our eyes are less dazzled.

Do the English wear DBs? They always seem to wear them open when they do, going back to that man in "Minder". They wear them open here too, which drives me crazy. I've always liked them, especially when striped. 

What makes tailoring good isn't just the fit and design, it's the attention to certain things assigned values by the groups that frequent the tailoring shop. For instance, a given tailoring shop may make an intrinsically flawed Double Breasted but if everyone in the right positions wears it, then a smart strategy could be to get them too. Not only is perfectionism sometimes a bad choice but often those obsessed with it don't know what to look for anyway. Thus, it's doubly a waste of time. You could end up wearing something which makes you stand out as a one and only, which can have it's drawbacks, especially if you have a marginal personality to begin with.

I see many of the English tailoring firms turn out badly balanced, badly finished DBs. However, unless you're a tailoring aficionado (which we are, here), it doesn't matter because your entire tribe might have the same flaws. These flaws eventually form a band of status.

Well, they aren't a common as they once were, but my tailor makes a lot of them, especially for his older clients. So that is perhaps the answer.

I see good and bad tailoring everywhere. No one nation has a monopoly on it.

From a tailoring perspective I've always put more truck in fit, cut, styling and silhouette. If a buttonhole isn't finished to perfection, so what? If the pick stitching is a little off, so what? If the stripes don't line up perfectly on a pocket flap so what? A well cut suit, will still be a well cut suit whether or not the button holes are finished to perfection, whether or not the pick stitching is a little off or the stripes are slightly off on a pocket flap but a shitty cut suit will always be a shitty cut suit even if it has the best button holes known to humanity, perfect pick stitching, perfect pattern matching &c. Cut, styling, fit and silhouette are the most important things in a suit. The British know this instinctively.

We might be having two slightly different conversations here.

If I go to London in a Corvato suit to hang out with XYZ crowd, I might be admired for his workmanship and yet not accepted whereas someone in a suit by Ramapo would be accepted because all the cool kids wear that style. The Ramapo suit may be well cut/made, it may not be; an imperfection might be a sign of superiority in the minds of a given set. Maybe there is a fetish for mismatched stripes somewhere. I know the opposite exists where people cannot see construction/fit and obsess over stripes matched. You rarely see things unless your eyes are opened to something and you have to be shown why something is important for this to happen. A few can become aware on their own but it takes serious desire.

And I am speaking about cultural differences, status differences etc... Probably there are allowances for foreigners.

In terms of suit cut, the status is mostly geared for the male world. Women respond to certain things men do not see but suits are generally not sexy except from the stand point of money, education, power/status, class. Suits tend to be part of a crowd or when different, better than the crowd, if you want to produce and assumed superiority.

Double breasted suits themselves reinforce the concept of male status because they are generally only worn by those with the most power and custom accessibility. When I saw power, I mean private sector power, self indulgent power. It would be hard to picture someone with public accountability wearing one.


Questions abound, would you rather wear cheap material or inappropriate material in a similar fit to your colleagues or indeed, the best fit/cut theoretically available?  Or, would it be better to wear the right materials made and fitted in an inferior manner?

Englishmen tend to wear the double breasted well. Their financial guys are often in them almost always striped. Fully unbuttoned but double breasted nonetheless. You cannot argue with a double breasted suit in the USA but I find that women often seem to think they are arbiters of what's in and what's out and will let you know where fashion stands with double breasted suits.

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formby wrote:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/299770/the-db-stare

Lol! What rubbish. Fortunately there are a few average Joes on there with more sense than the trench coat cognoscenti.

I like wearing things other people aren't and the DB suit has nothing to do with fashion. I would be unhappy if people were wearing them everywhere. Watching people on the street is fun but it's a secondary source and a poor sampler.

I can think of at least a half dozen reasons why that OP would be stared at which have nothing to do with wearing a DB suit.

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/299770/the-db-stare

Lol! What rubbish. Fortunately there are a few average Joes on there with more sense than the trench coat cognoscenti.

I like wearing things other people aren't and the DB suit has nothing to do with fashion. I would be unhappy if people were wearing them everywhere. Watching people on the street is fun but it's a secondary source and a poor sampler.

I can think of at least a half dozen reasons why that OP would be stared at which have nothing to do with wearing a DB suit.

I thought this was quite interesting: (emphasis mine)

Gezzer wrote:

Chatting to Richard Hudson a few weeks ago, he said H and H's tie sales had gone up a lot in the last year or so and that he saw an increasing tendency (I paraphrase) for those with the option of biz caz or suit to dress more formally than a few years ago.

That's also my impression: even if - sigh - it's just men upgrading biz caz to a suit with no tie.

I suspect it's psychological. A bit of serious times require serious clothes, a bit of contracts and clients being harder to get so why risk giving a casual impression, and a bit of mental armour. If for the first time in your adult life you are genuinely worried about losing your job or paying the school fees, wearing some form of proper business dress may make you feel more secure. "You can't sack me, I belong here."

I also think I detect a parallel ratcheting-down of the ever-popular English loud -checked/bold-striped shirt thing too. A more humble era for Western capitalism is causing a reaction against items seen as swaggering, arrogant., BSD, "Wall Street" (the movie) and so on. Mad Men probably has an influence too.

I wear a DB fairly often and am overdue a new one. I very rarely see others in central London. I think that's in part simply because all the DBs that were so popular in the 80s and early 90s (the boxy flappy low gorge often 1 show 2 things) have either been abandoned by their owners as outmoded or, more likely, have simply worn out and everything in the department store that our typical bloke reluctantly buys his work clothes from is an SB.

Maybe in London there is a temporary lull because people associate the chalk stripe and the bold shirt and tie with bankers (They associate it in NYC with bankers too but don't seem to have the same negative issues that the English have with the clothes). For the English that look will come back soon, if it's gone now, because the English just dont change that much.

I dont think Americans care about the cut of a suit or the buttoning stance. Americans have a more superficial approach to the visual and react more to color and pattern. A striped suit will excite more attention than a double breasted one. One woman literally pawed my striped suit last night. I dont think I have ever heard anyone comment on the fact that I was wearing a double breasted suit. I have been wearing an Albert tie knot recently and more people comment on what they think of as a "full windsor" knot than how many buttons I have on my suit.