Just quickly before I apply the 2nd coat -
(I'll hit your other longer post ASAP)

The other thing would maybe be how closely Dad followed Grandad for the traditional aspect of all this in the U.S.?

I'm 42 so if I was an American my father would have been an 'Ivy for Everyone' Boom Guy in the 50's/'60's (He was born in '33).
My Grandpa would have been a pre-war 'Elite' Ivy guy (born in 1891).

As it was they were a pair of Tweedy English chaps - Pretty much the route my younger brother took.

As an 'Ivy Dad' myself now my aesthetic is probably mainly mid to late 80's. Brooks & Press as they were then with random input from J. Simons, old films, Jazz LP covers & U.S. magazines mainly.

So that echos your point about the lack of a 'Pure Ivy' - We are all arriving at this from different directions and at different points.

I'll try to hit next what my 'Ultimate Ivy' might be purely as an exercise in playing with my experience of this style over the pond here.
It'll be good for a laugh if nothing else!

(Don't worry about sarcasm from me, I rarely use it. To use an expression from my experience of Ivy style in London: I'm as Kosher as a Goy can be!)

t.

Last edited by Terry Lean (2007-06-04 12:49:20)

I'll do something on WASP style probably for Thursday when my time will be a little more free.
Of interest is the 'New WASP' fashion editorial of May '86 in Vanity Fair which for me marks the start of the move to a more 'European' flavour in WASP style as opposed to the previously much stronger English influence (Europe & England being different in my book).

WASP style is all about the clothes of America's old WASP elite, but sadly it's not much help with the Trad or Ivy League wardrobe which is much more middle class. The real American elite looked to England much more than to domestic outlets like Brooks & Press. WASP is a much more cosmopolitan style too bringing in elements from Charvet & Sulka without any problem.

Harris on AAAT asked the other day if 'Luxe' & Trad were compatible on his boxer shorts thread. Only a Trad could really answer that, but for WASP style they are very compatible.

More on this to follow...

Ivy League style I think never really recovered from the boom years in terms of its social status in the U.S. - It stayed very middle class.
Even pre-war when Ivy was an elite style it was only ever really a youthful thing. Grown men would move on to more English styled tailoring usually. Tom Wolfe in 'The Secret Vice' writes about this process still going on as late as '67 I think.

Happy to kick this around with anyone.

t.

A thought:

"Trad" is the American middle-middle-class's perception of America's elite style combining all the WASPy 'Preppy' fun stuff (Lilly!) with Ivy League tailoring?

Does that help?

The REAL American elite style (WASP!) is Savile Row/Paris/Rome with a few Ivy elements thrown in. Simply because its more expensive & exclusive than a trip down to Brooks or Press. Why would the rich dress with the probity of the middle class? Rich people don't actually do things like that you know.

At best you can say that Trad (& Ivy too) is upper middle class?

I think that that's fair.

Take the idea, kick it around, it's yours.

t.

Last edited by Terry Lean (2007-06-06 01:24:32)

This can die if you like.
I've started a new 'WASP' thread to keep things moving & to stop Mr. Tradly's name being splashed around quite so much (I may like his work, but he might not like his name all over the forums, who knows?)

Hope our new Trad friends will continue to take an interest.
This is all kinda about them anyway...

t.

Good to hear from you, T3B.
I'll spell it out on the WASP thread.
Ask questions when I don't make sense.

t.

Gets my vote.

Let it all hang out!