Thank you, the points aren't quite there yet in my long note but it's been playing in my mind for a long time.   I agree with the fun aspect, joy is a very good word.   We find our enjoyment in things that resonate with us.   That thing of wanting to be the same but wanting to be different, is it a teenage thing I can't let go, am I trying to prove something?  I don't know.   It's fun though as you say.   Perhaps it's simple, there was a moment or a short lived era when the combination of influences arrived simultaneously to create something unique that was the perfection of something embodied in clothing.   For me that's the modernist fusing USA and Italian in the late 1950s or so, but others it's a Southern traditionalist bow tie oriented sensibility.   I'm not sure even with the banner of Ivy we are reaching towards the same thing, maybe that doesn't matter either.  People who enjoy New Orleans style trad jazz don't enjoy free jazz, but it's all jazz and part of a lineage.   The same may be true here.

Last edited by An Unseen Scene (2015-01-27 16:12:09)

The look is one aspect. While some demand authenticity of origin, I demand quality. Once Vietnam can produce a Shetland as good as Scotland, or the USA, I'll buy them. If the same Barbour comes out of Bulgaria for lower cost, I'll buy that as well. It hasn't happened yet.

If I pay attention to my clothes, am I being ridiculous? Of course I am. Life is utter nonsense. Some people spend thousands of dollars on a dinner. Others watch inane melodramas on TV for hours on end. People get in fights over local sport teams that have nothing to do with them except that they reside in the same city. If I give up thinking about clothes, am I going to concern myself with power outages in Papua New Guinea? No.

I am so tired of the BB lamentations. When was BB ever the pinnacle of quality? I'll answer my own question: never. I'm a long standing customer. I still go there. I'm not happy with everything. But I am tired of people pretending it was some Mecca of quality. I got the same quality sweaters they had at BB at Wanamakers and Mom probably paid half the price. I do believe BB quality has declined. But so has just about everything else. The offerings at Lord and Taylor and Macy's are abysmal. Used to be you could find quality goods in your everyday department store. That's very difficult today. BB is still offering better goods than the department stores. That might not be saying much to many here, but it is a long way from becoming Macy's.

Anyway, just this weekend I was looking around for a made in USA cotton sweater. Bean boasts about their 100% USA cotton sweaters...made somewhere else, and certainly a third-world hellhole factory as the ominous "imported" label proclaims. Funny how items made in Italy, France, and the UK, e.g., never are advertized as "imported." BB are clearly made in China. Eventually, I did find someone making made in USA cotton sweaters...out of a 3d printer. I have no idea what that means and do not have the stamina to find out.

So, yeah, Ivy isn't just a look. It's not about authenticity of origin for origin-sake. Ivy clothes should be quality goods that can age, not cheap goods that achieve the look, but  need to be discarded after a relatively short time. And life is nonsense.

Interesting thoughts, Unseen.  I'll try to muster up a little blurb on my take here before I'm off to a late dinner.  Rehashing much of what I've said before, but I'll try to be succinct. 

For me, it's just a look I love, and the details, no matter how minute, go into the creation of the whole.  My take is obviously tied in with that "perfect moment in time", as you say Unseen, which was utterly fleeting, and for me, this period is pretty much 1955 - 1965.  I'm talking in strictly aesthetic terms here.  I'm not committing the fallacy of saying "everything was better back then," but for me, the American natural shoulder look of that particular era is unsurpassed as far as a widely adopted mode of dress for a vast segment of the American male population. 

And I obsess over authenticity, but more authenticity of the particular look of that time and place, rather than any authenticity of origin or heritage.  But this seeming obsession is quite pervasive in other areas in my life.  When I'm restoring a vintage drum set, I have to have ALL the correct pieces.  I can't have some part that, while perfectly functional, is from a later or earlier era, unless it's an exact reproduction of the original part.  Same with this old Ford pickup I'm trying to fix up.  I don't want any apparent anachronisms to ruin the whole.  The colors must be correct, the wheels must be the correct size for the period, hide the iPod connection in the glove box so it's not seen, etc.  However, what this does in turn, is make the whole itself, a big anachronism.  Plus, the fact that it was so fleeting makes it that much more interesting to me.  And I've always been drawn to artifacts of ages past and antiques and ephemera, whether cars, furniture, magazines, Georgia Tech yearbooks.  So the style just kind of fits nicely into this aspect of my interests and personality. 

Friends and people that know me get this, and I think it makes sense to them and I think I carry it off in a way that puts me above the freakish reenactors and I navigate the real world and don't live in some delusion that it's 1959 all day every day.  To me, these are just interests, hobbies, things to occupy my time, and trying to achieve the authenticity, the correctness, is part of the fun for me.  Ivy just fits into this scheme, but it's also conveniently functional, in that it's clothing.  So it's a constant enjoyment, for I can't always listen to the great jazz, or tinker on my truck, or polish my mid-century furniture but I have to get dressed every day, and then the style still keeps me planted in this general aesthetic that I love.  My "life aesthetic" I think I called it one time.  The clothes kind of tie it all together in a way.  But in reality, only when coming across provocative posts like this on the forum do I even put so much thought into it.  At base, it's just what I like.  I mean, you've gotta have some style or no style at all right? 

And like you say, it's apparently a ridiculous and shallow endeavor, but it's not all-consuming, nor do I take for granted that I'm in a very privileged position that allows me to explore these interests and fret over things such as the hook on a center vent.  But I derive enjoyment from it, and that's the only real justification I need to carry on.  Could I stand to buy less clothes, or purge some that I have?  Of course. 

But I will echo Jeff on the quality point, in that I have been trying to seek out better quality garments, and spending a little more here and there on new items that will hopefully stand the test of time.  I'll never stop looking for vintage gems too, but I think I've got the acuity at this point to recognize quality when I see and feel it.  So I used to subscribe more to the "cheap goods that achieve the look" idea, but now I feel I need to be more selective, be prepared to spend a bit more on new items, and make sure I mold my wardrobe into one that will serve me well, both in terms of form and function, for many years to come.

Thanks for replies everyone - quality and interest are both key points.

What I like about American suits made in English fabrics or Indian madras in an American buttondown, is that they are collaborations -- England says, "This is English fabric", America says, "This is American tailoring", and what we get is a mixture of England and America. India says, "This is our dyeing and weaving tradition", America says, "This is our preference for pattern and cut", and the end result is a mixture of India and America. Even "Made in China" can be made this way -- China says, "Here's our Shantung silk", America says, "Here's our tailoring", and the collaborating jackets are now both Chinese and American. However, that's not how modern outsourcing works -- instead, it's "Make what we want and you'll get to keep our contract." There's no collaboration at all. Take Brooks Brothers "Made in Malaysia" shirts -- there's no collaboration there, just young Malaysian and Chinese women happy to have a steady paycheck. It loses some of the magic, in my opinion.

Last edited by katon (2015-01-28 03:18:00)

Last edited by katon (2015-01-28 05:12:45)

I'm pleased cars don't have vinyl seats anymore. Any kid who's ever sat down on those in shorts on a hot day will agree.

Last edited by Worried Man (2015-01-28 07:36:27)

Looking back at my original post last night, it was a stream of consciousness thing liberated by a bottle of red wine.
There were a number of thoughts and concepts, some connecting, some disparate woven into that text.
I'm glad it's stimulated interesting responses.   Thanks.

Last edited by An Unseen Scene (2015-01-28 10:17:32)