You are not logged in.

  • Index
  •  » The Wardrobe
  •  » Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

#1 2015-10-03 00:20:18

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

By Alexander Chancellor in The Spectator:

When Robert Peston, the economics editor of the BBC, interviewed George Osborne on television in an open-necked shirt with collar awry and a wisp of chest hair on display, he was subjected to a barrage of criticism to which he responded with vigour. It was ‘bonkers’ to suggest that wearing a tie made a journalist serious, he said, or that a tie should be worn out of respect for the interviewee. ‘I didn’t not wear a tie out of disrespect for the chancellor,’ he said. ‘I just didn’t wear a tie because I don’t really like wearing a tie. I think these TV conventions are nuts.’

A report in the Times of this dispute, in which self-appointed British ‘etiquette’ specialists were wheeled on to pass judgment on Peston’s stance, seemed to side with him against what it called the ‘starched shirt and tie’ dress code of Britain, comparing this unfavourably with America’s sartorial informality. Britain, it said, was ‘still enmeshed in its dress codes’, while ‘Steve Jobs, the late chief executive of Apple, always dressed in jeans, trainers and black turtleneck, and Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook, wears T-shirts and hooded sweatshirts to black-tie events.’

We are in the realm of fantasy here. How could anyone still describe Britain as ‘enmeshed in its dress codes’? All the social pressure in Britain is to dress down, or at least not to wear a tie. Peston is hardly alone. Our role model is Richard Branson, who has said, ‘I often have a pair of scissors in my top pocket to go cutting people’s ties off. It is time to say goodbye to the tie.’ So unfashionable is the tie that it’s not even worn much with dinner jackets any more. If you attend a ‘black-tie’ event you will find that the item usually missing from the uniform is the black tie itself.

The pressure to look informal is exerted from two directions — from the toffs who don’t want to look like toffs and from the non-toffs who don’t want to look as if they are playing the toffs’ game. Thus, David Cameron dresses as informally as he dares, and Labour party leaders tend to agonise before putting on white tie and tails for an event like the Lord Mayor’s Banquet. They tend in the end to go along with convention only because they risk popular disapproval if they don’t (bearing in mind the censure suffered by Michael Foot when, as Labour leader, he wore what looked like a donkey jacket at the Cenotaph ceremony on Remembrance Day).

The British have turned against uniforms of any kind, regarding them perhaps as supportive of the class system and repressive of individuality. The Americans, on the other hand, have no such inhibitions. They may have invented jeans and T-shirts, and have adopted sportswear as their national dress, but they have never stopped loving formal occasions. You can’t be a middle-class American without being regularly called on to wear a black bow-tie, and there are times in Washington DC when the streets seem to be thronged with young men in black ties making their way to some event or other. The Americans go along with the idea that we are prim and stuffy and that they are informal and relaxed, but they are far happier in uniforms than we are.

There has never been much squeamishness in America even about the white tie. Ronald Reagan positively loved it and insisted it be worn at his inaugural balls in 1981 (he wore morning dress for the inauguration itself). And remember Fred Astaire’s ringing endorsement of the outfit in his song from the 1935 film Top Hat:

‘I just got an invitation through the mails,/ “Your presence requested this evening, it’s formal” — / A top hat, a white tie, and tails./ Nothing now could take the wind out of my sails/ Because I’m invited to step out this evening/ With top hat and white tie and tails.’

So we are quite mistaken if we think we are being like Americans in embracing informality. Zuckerberg and the other stars of Silicon Valley may, supported as they are by their vast wealth, feel free to flaunt their non-conformity, but most Americans working in offices still wear ties, and I can’t remember ever seeing a male presenter or interviewer on American television without one. They, unlike Peston, are upholders of Reithian propriety in how broadcasters should dress. They think viewers want them to look humbly respectful, and I think they are probably right.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#2 2015-10-03 01:58:27

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

How things change. During the height of the recession in the noughties, when he was on TV every 10 minutes, Peston used to wear classic suits and ties. With his neat but quite old fashioned haircut he looked razor sharp and at one point GQ named him as one of the best dressed men in Britain - not that that means anything as we know.


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#3 2015-10-03 02:14:27

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

We stayed in Chicago last week and there were a lot of business people in our hotel with meetings and conferences taking place every day. I noted an even distribution of suiit+ tie / suit + no tie / jacket and trousers ( usually chinos) + no tie. It seemed quite informal.

A suit doesn't look right without a tie, all it says is that the wearer is conventional but trying to appear 'down with it' without daring to stray too far from convention. It's all illusional because if you're genuinely cool and relaxed that quality will come across regardless of what you're wearing.


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#4 2015-10-03 04:37:32

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#5 2015-10-03 05:12:20

Beestonplace
Member
Posts: 1926

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

Silicon valley and "non-conformity"?

They - as every other social group - have their own dress codes and norms of behaviour. To which they adhere.


I LOVE , this foum

 

#6 2015-10-03 05:14:34

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#7 2015-10-03 05:17:46

Beestonplace
Member
Posts: 1926

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

Wearing a tie is quite an exception today. When flying business class, I am often the only one in full biz garb.


I LOVE , this foum

 

#8 2015-10-03 05:56:03

Goodyear welt
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 3089

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


Rocking traditional, current and classic Italian Ivy since 2011.

 

#9 2015-10-03 09:47:21

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#10 2015-10-03 11:51:23

Beestonplace
Member
Posts: 1926

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

So the people who used to wear ties dont wear them anymore, whereas many people who do not have to wear a tie (=igent population) are now wearing one.


I LOVE , this foum

 

#11 2015-10-03 13:19:12

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

A dark fine knit polo shirt (as opposed to a polo neck) looks good with the right suit in less formal situations, the shirt needs to be fastened to the top. A look which I might explore this winter.


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#12 2015-10-03 14:06:23

The_Shooman
A pretty face
From: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 13179

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

 

#13 2015-10-03 17:57:00

chatsworth osborne jr.
Member
Posts: 738

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

Claiming that the United States have a ubiquity of black-tie events based on the existence on fundraising formal events in the capitol city is more than a little incorrect.  Witness the igents asking about brown shoes for their own weddings on other forums.

 

#14 2015-10-03 23:55:54

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

I think the underlying subtext of the article is fear by the journalist that the yanks have stolen the formal sartorial edge from the Brits.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#15 2015-10-04 01:54:10

Goodyear welt
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 3089

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


Rocking traditional, current and classic Italian Ivy since 2011.

 

#16 2015-10-04 06:28:35

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#17 2015-10-04 06:55:58

Beestonplace
Member
Posts: 1926

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

Yes, square-ended knitted tie is "ok" for weekends, but, like a hat, is not a typical way to dress nowadays, nevertheless AAAC people ask "why do people look at me with my Feodora?"

My weekend kit, especially for long urban walks: muted colours, regular shoes (= dark brown oxfords or monks, or Alden cordovans in 8), open neck shirt, maybe a crew neck sweater (the "good boy" look suits me well, especially as I grow older, it gives me some Hugh-Grant-ca.-1990-naughtyness), no pocket square, no silly accessories.


I LOVE , this foum

 

#18 2015-10-04 08:44:01

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

^On long urban walks, one is best to blend into the background el'hombre invisible style, less one takes a wrong turning into a Class Action demo, or any other group of maddies associated with the joy of modern urban living.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#19 2015-10-04 09:05:14

Goodyear welt
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 3089

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

I don't wear hats, lets get that straight! Though I did see a wool herringbone cap that I rather liked the other day. I've a couple of mates that also wear knitted and non-knitted ties at the weekend, as far as I'm aware their not on any clothing forums. I thought an igent was someone who succumbed to group think on forums? I don't look at other forums so I can't really say I know what igents do or don't wear.

Having seen the typical way men my age dress I'm gonna stick with what I know. Though of course I wear open necked shirts and knitwear as well from time to time, but the shirt collar HAS to be a button down, non-fused with a decent collar length and roll. I realise this may be an affliction.

Pocket squares are good. I'm toying with the idea of getting a necker-chief this week for some extra dandyness from time to time.


Rocking traditional, current and classic Italian Ivy since 2011.

 

#20 2015-10-04 09:20:47

doghouse
Member
Posts: 5147

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


Hide thy infants, hide thy Lady, and hide thy husband, alas they art forcing sexual intercourse upon the entire populace. - Wm Shakespeare

 

#21 2015-10-04 09:25:34

doghouse
Member
Posts: 5147

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


Hide thy infants, hide thy Lady, and hide thy husband, alas they art forcing sexual intercourse upon the entire populace. - Wm Shakespeare

 

#22 2015-10-04 11:12:54

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
Posts: 9340

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

The tie is important and it is one of the few overtly phallic symbols in clothing. It's absence, among other factors, could signal a form of self castration among western men. Other reasons for the exclusion of the neck tie include wanting to look younger and copying male media sex symbols. In general most men arent attractive, confident or "cool" enough to pull off this tieless look one sees on film or rock stars.

Sometimes a suit can be worn with a shirt sans tie; usually when the shirt is strong or busy enough to either obviate a tie or would be ruined by a tie. It is true you see more and more older men wearing more formal shirts without ties because they think it makes them look more virile. Nothing could be further from the truth  Interestingly, the younger men are wearing ties alll the time. One might ask, how is it that older men can miss the mark and not understand that right now at this moment of sartorial history, it's wearing a tie that makes you look younger? Well, the answer is mired in self reflections of class, generation and image.

I can tell you from many interactions in NYC that it's generally women and young men that compliment me on a colorful or bold tie while it's more likely that middle aged men and early stage old men are more likely to be bothered by them and comment negatively. Although, when men reach an even older state (75+) they seem to like bolder ties again. One retailer with deep experience in the UK told me that a man who wears a bold tie on a bold shirt is less likely to be asked for directions. Although he said it in a manner that sounded like this situation was evidence of a lack of perceived decency or propriety on the part of the wearer, I heard something different and began to wear bold ties on bold shirts more often.

 

#23 2015-10-04 12:43:42

chatsworth osborne jr.
Member
Posts: 738

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

 

#24 2015-10-04 14:36:20

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
Posts: 9340

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

 

#25 2015-10-04 16:00:34

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 
  • Index
  •  » The Wardrobe
  •  » Tie vs No Tie: Brits and US Differences in the Media and Workplace

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2008 Rickard Andersson