Sorry to say I'm 'bumping' again, if I'm not pushing my luck with FNB too much.
I've had a go at making the above a bit clearer.
I think the point could be an interesting one to discuss.

Miles

For me, the term "trad," sometimes spelled "Trad," means to me what it means on AAAC and, yes, Harris is its major proponent. I grew up with this look, and I'm afraid the way "trad" is used on AAAC is how I think we need to define it -- we need to isolate this bit of jargon to exactly the look described on AAAC.

What has been described using the term "trad" on this forum is something entirely different that deserves its own unique appelation.

Last edited by Twin Six (2006-05-09 05:50:23)

The AAAC look is the look of someone who grew up wearing button-down shirts and suits or blazers bought for them to grow into or hand-me-downs from dad. It is typically the look of well-to-do New England families. It's almost a default style of dress that looks unstudied because it is. It is far from the dynamic, young style you describe; it is rather a professorial style of the type likely to have been passed down by crotchety old men.

Frankly, I really like the style embraced in the so-called trad threads here a lot better, but it is hardly the trad that the word itself was coined to describe.

I think that Twin Six is quite right here.  I'd never heard the style called "Trad" until it was identified as such on AAAC.  I had always thought of it as Twin Six describes it -- unstudied, traditional East Coast American clothing.  In fact, I'd always thought of it as East Coast American.

My take is: this style became a universal hit in the 1950s, and then spent the next 40 years receding in the American consciousness (thank you Manton for this eloquent insight) until it now exists primarily in its original habitats (certain universities and old fashioned families).  Certain elements of it occasionally are revived as Preppy, but it's now a niche style.  Until the mid-90s, one could just refer to it as American clothing, but the Italianisation of American menswear in the last 10 years has meant that American clothing is now something quite different.

By the late 90's a relatively small group of people realised that this style was disappearing, and in an effort to identify and preserve it codified certain rules.  Only plain front, only 3 button, no darts, only center vent, only buttondowns.

Those rules have been followed with varying degrees of orthodoxy.  The AAAC crowd seems to be divided into those who used to wear the clothes and rue their increasing irrelevance, those who appreciate an endangered indigenous American style, those who appreciate its massive irony potential, and those who are wannabe old money types.

Naturally, the most orthodox tend to be of the last variety.


While what's discussed by MA has the structure of Trad clothing (because both were in their prime in the 50s), it's not really Trad in spirit at all.  I'd actually think of MA's style as Beat, 50's Bohemian, or Hep.  I think you could say that Ivy League/Preppy falls almost entirely within Trad, but on the outer reaches of Ivy (where the tweeds are less tweedy) it blends with this Beat style.

Actually, MA, I'd recommend the film "Sweet SMell of Success" to study this.  Most of the men are all wearing Trad because that's all that existed in America then, outside those with European sensibilities.  But take a look at the jazz musicians.  They're in Ivy clothing (softer, less formal), which has a definite Trad structure but is still quite different.  The movie's jazz musicians are a VERY saccharined depiction of real bohemian jazz style, but you can see how the allusion works.

Last edited by Lord Copper (2006-05-09 08:13:10)

Trad sensibilities were formed in places like the yacht club, country club, golf course, and of course the private schools and Ivy League universities of New England. Some of the coding of the trad style derives from these institutions. It's typically waspy and snooty and is very far from having anything to do with jazz.

Nice post, Lord Cropper!

When I began to post at AAAC, I saw that there was Harris Trad and Horace Trad.  I'm glad to see that I can continue to learn about Horace Trad.  Thanks for dredging up the 60s.

Yes, I had to break with Harris.  The Trad Orthodoxy could not continue any longer.  But I still
have for him fond affection.  I would not be too hard on all the AA+AAC Trads.  Perhaps the differences there are
more than they care to admit.  My distaste with the Andy Trad came after awhile because I saw it as
too aspirational.  Though one of the Malindas, sending me a private message, told me that I think of myself as
an American Aristocrat.  My socialist feelings she did hurt.

We must advocate the the clean, simple, timeless Trad.  Without affectation.

I want to give a shout-out to my homies Vaclav and Hector.  Yo.

Wise words, Horace.
'Harris' DOES know his stuff by and large. My only problem was the spin he put on it.
The class element in 'Trad' on the other forum wasn't to my taste. Why bang on about class if you are socially secure? It all seemed very suspect to me.

Still, enough of all that.

Here we have a place where a man can breathe freely, button-down his shirt, slip on his Sebagos and shrug on his sack.
I've no complaints.

Miles

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-05-10 07:06:16)

No Fogeys here, I trust.
'Fogey' is balls - I know, I 'invented it' as 'Russell Street'.
'Harris' was heading in that direction so I jumped in quickly with observations from my hated childhood in the Welcome Ted. You have found the home of all the nice people on the net.

Miles


So at the Ask Andy, you were just taking the piss as you British like to say as Russell Street?  Are you even British?