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#1 2006-05-18 05:21:39

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

The Process of MTM

I've had MTM suits made.  So I know things like what "details" one may get.  But two things have never been clear to me.  I'd be grateful if you lads could help clear this up

1)  The user "A tailor" on AA&AAC mentioned the process of MTM.  The post was a good one, but a few things remained unclear.  Can someone be as specific as possible, about say, the process at Southwick.  My understanding (rough though it may be) is that a stock OTR pattern is modified.  But how?  By computer, by hand, or what?  Does say, a 42R get cut and then those differences needed (based upon measurements specific to the client) get imposed, or what?  If for instance a standard trouser has a particular waist, inseam, and rise; when it is cut (and I know that in OTR you can have a low, mid, or high rise _as stock_ OTR) is the pattern modified before the cutting or after, if it's MTM.  I hope this is clear.  If not, I'll rephrase.   In other words, once these MTM measurements are had, what is the process (in steps) to actually make the suit?

2)  What are the varous measurements that that are taken for MTM, exactly?  I assume this varies by maker, like Southwick, Samuelsohn, H. Freeman, etc.  Would someone be so kind as to list them all?

To my memory, neither of these questions has really been answered in full.


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#2 2006-05-19 05:04:55

Miles Away
Member
From: Miles away
Posts: 1180

Re: The Process of MTM


" ... Ubi bene, ibi patria, which being roughly translated means, 'Wherever there's a handout, that's for me, man.' "
Alistair Cooke. 1968.

 

#3 2006-05-20 01:17:46

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

Re: The Process of MTM

Thanks all for the info.

I'm sort of wondering whether, say at a place like Southwick, whether during the manufacturing process (assuming its automated), how a standard ORT pattern is "cut" -- and whether the pattern is "altered" before it is cut, or whether the OTR "blanks" once cut, are then altered.  In addition, it'd be interesting to me what exactly the process for an OTR is today, and what it was like, say 20, 30 or 40 years ago.  How much is automated, how much is divided into separate, specialized tasks carried out by one individual worker, etc.

There was a post by "A tailor" on Andy's site that addressed some of this, but unfortunately, it was lost to the black hole of an archive over there.


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#4 2006-06-12 23:14:49

jsprowls9
Member
From: Denver, CO
Posts: 250

Re: The Process of MTM

There are several approaches to develop an MTM suit pattern. The most common is to use a master pattern for the stock size you order (in this case, 42R), then adjust it to meet your measurements in key areas (namely: waist, chest, arm inseam, and hem length). The second method (for those who are technologically astute) is to "grow" or "shrink" a mater pattern using a commerical pattern drafting software - basically achieving the same result as a manual lay. The third method is to use the measurements you provide to draft a one-off pattern. I believe the one-off patterns are drafted using a mix of software and manual processes.

I don't like most of the software on the market because they never seem to get the scye, sleeve head, or crotch curve quite right. I Then, I haven't used the $10K Gerber suite in a small business - so, I can't speak to its performance. I have several manufacturers with whom I am acquainted who sing praises saying that the Gerber suite is excellent for grading patterns commercially. Though each of them also recommends that a commercial (i.e. RTW) pattern should be fitted on model and then the final pattern should be scanned into the system to be graded up and down. Very few recommend relying whole-heartedly on patterndrafting software to cast the foundation pattern.

 

#5 2006-06-15 12:12:31

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

Re: The Process of MTM

Thanks very much Jsprowls,

Still, I'm wondering, how much of the actual "cutting" of the suit is automated?  Let's say for RTW, I'm a factory and I'm making suits, 1000 each in each size and I'm up to 42R and I want to "punch" them out.  My guess (and it's strictly a guess based on an outdated knowledge of manufacturing -- e.g. having a look at factories in Fall River, Mass) that you set up a press with die (which I would gather is still expensive to have made by a good tool and die maker in the US)  and put the fabric underneath that die and "stamp" out the fabric for the suit.  From there you'd take it's parts (that have been cut) and then either put them together by hand or where necessary (or financially prudent) by machine?

I'm just trying to get a handle on the actual (current) manufacturing processes for RTW before I ask how MTM might differ -- and how much more (if at all) labor intensive the manufacture of MTM might be.

From what I gather, if one does have this automated computer software, you've got a template (or pattern).  But is the cutting automated in say a Southwick or Freeman (I assume not so much (if at all???) in an Oxxford)....


If this isn't clear, I'll come back and try to write something more so.

Thanks,

Horace


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#6 2006-06-18 19:22:39

jsprowls9
Member
From: Denver, CO
Posts: 250

Re: The Process of MTM

Cutting may be automated at some plants, but CAM equipment is very expensive (e.g. in excess of several hundred thousand dollars). So, I can say with a degree of certainty that MTM maufacturers are likely not using CAM equipment. I mean, the only manufacturer that I have ever head of scanning a client's body and then using CAM equipment to cut the pattern directly on the cloth with lasers was Levi's. And, they put that project on the back burner because it had technical failings as well as marketing issues.

RTW is pretty straight forward, but too long to detail, here. RTW patterns are referred to as blocks. They are developed based on a standard set of measures (these are regulated and updated annually) and then fit to 'fit models' (someone whose body shape meets these standards). I'm working on putting together an illustration of the process of developing a commercial pattern (very technical) - but, it's a while off and will be used for teaching purposes. Though, you can email me and I will share the highlights with you when it's complete: jcsprowls@declansteed.com.

Blocks tend to be fitted less precisely than bespoke so the RTW suit can accomodate minor fitting fluctuations for a group of wearers. MTM is more labor-intensive than RTW because one cannot stack 100 plies of fabric and cut a size 42 suit, for example (that's not quite how it's done, but close enough for illustration purposes). In MTM, one must spread only the necessary yardage for one suit, adjust the block pattern in key areas, chalk, cut, and then pass the cut suit over to be made and trimmed.

Die cutting is one method. Though, I've only seen suits cut with a knife (similar to a large jig saw). Leather goods are typically die cut. But, American Apparel in Los Angeles cuts T shirts using automated equipment that happens to die cut. Check out their website for an overview of some production methods. AA uses technology to keep their production costs down - but, it makes sense for the scale of their operation.

I can illustrate how to cut an MTM suit from an RTW block, later, if that's of interest. But, that's a few months out, too as I need to get back in the studio.

 

#7 2006-06-19 00:33:04

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

Re: The Process of MTM

Very kind of you to post this very helpful explanation.  I look forward to more, esp. those particular matters that will require you more time, as you said in your message.


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#8 2006-06-20 08:14:43

jsprowls9
Member
From: Denver, CO
Posts: 250

Re: The Process of MTM

 

#9 2006-06-23 04:03:23

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

Re: The Process of MTM


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#10 2006-06-23 06:39:25

sweetbooness2
Member
Posts: 60

Re: The Process of MTM

My Oxxfords were all mtm and would accomodate two size adjustments easily. This is also standard for their rtw garments. I had a serious illness, lost weight, then eventually began training powerlifters. The resulting body changes, particularly through the shoulders, upper back, and hips were easily accomodated.  My Hickey Freemans allowed for  the same adjustments, whether rtw or mtm.  Hickey may have changed this practice now, but I doubt it. Other manufacturers like Coppley, Warren K. Cook and maybe Samuelsohn also leave enough room in the seams to accomodate such contingencies.

My Southwicks are not handcut, but are modified to allow for the carriage of my shoulders, simply lowering the collar and the pants are modified to allow for the way they are worn on my hips. Apparently, I got a lot of wrinkling in the front, according to Myles Thurston at Eljos, because I wore them lower in the front. This is taken into account when the suits are made, and my pants are cut to take this idiosyncracy into account. The jackets are also cut in actually a mid-long length, 32 inches from the bottom of the collar, rather than a standard 46l, which would be 1/2 inch longer.

Last edited by sweetbooness2 (2006-06-23 06:51:40)

 

#11 2006-06-24 19:32:32

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

Re: The Process of MTM


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#12 2006-06-24 20:33:02

sweetbooness2
Member
Posts: 60

Re: The Process of MTM

I have had over a dozen made in the past two years or so. All of them have been through Eljos in Charlottesville. It is not Oxxford, or Hickey Freeman,  but overall ,I like the particular model of Southwick I wear, the Plymouth, very much. They have gone to half canvas, and machine cutting, but still make what I call a gentleman's suit, as opposed to the Oxxford/Hickey business suit. I expect to take delivery on my first Southwick db in a month or so.

As I have recently posted on this board though, I am seriously thinking of going the bespoke route. I recently had a very pleasant phone conversation with Mr. Winston at Winston Tailors.

Last edited by sweetbooness2 (2006-06-25 09:06:14)

 

#13 2006-06-27 01:49:48

Horace
Member
Posts: 6432

Re: The Process of MTM


""This is probably the last Deb season...because of the stock market, the economy, Everything..." - W. Stillman.

 

#14 2006-07-15 22:51:05

jsprowls9
Member
From: Denver, CO
Posts: 250

Re: The Process of MTM

 

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