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#26 2006-12-10 15:02:41

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

These quotes make me wonder where the "trad" phenomenon came from: not Ivy League, but Boy Next Door? It would help explain the squeaky-clean elements and the suburban obsession with uniformity. I am also intrigued by the mention of the Korean War. The mainstream view is that soldiers returning from WWII started attending college and dressing casually, but maybe the Korean War had an impact too?


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#27 2006-12-10 15:10:44

Terry Lean
Member
Posts: 2440

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Really good point.
Can't help you, but I like your thinking.
I think we've worked out that Trad's roots are not actually patrician but aspirational. For that little imposture in the past they've been cheeked by low-lifes like me.

BUT!

Present the style as the authentic voice of middle-middle suburban white-bread then I've got a lot of respect for it as something very real & valid.

AND valuable.

It's all about positioning. As a fake, Trad is bad. Make it real & you've got a deal. I can be a fan of a little authenticity from anywhere.

t.


"One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing"

 

#28 2006-12-10 15:57:03

Coolidge
Member
Posts: 1162

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Terry Lean wrote:

Really good point.
Can't help you, but I like your thinking.
I think we've worked out that Trad's roots are not actually patrician but aspirational. For that little imposture in the past they've been cheeked by low-lifes like me.

BUT!

Present the style as the authentic voice of middle-middle suburban white-bread then I've got a lot of respect for it as something very real & valid.

AND valuable.

It's all about positioning. As a fake, Trad is bad. Make it real & you've got a deal. I can be a fan of a little authenticity from anywhere.

t.

As it stands now you mean.  I think most people over here who started out over there went in with the impression they were talking about Ivy. Some who remain, self included, still try to, when the opportunity presents itself.

That aside, the Boy Next Door style is illuminating. I would venture to guess it is the precursor to the "Business Casual" getup of RL or similar polo shirt,  pleated Dockers khakis, and generic leather shoes.

Last edited by Coolidge (2006-12-10 15:57:35)

 

#29 2006-12-10 16:33:57

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Witness the power of a sack suit to pull young women (Tab Hunter, looking great).

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9936/hunter1rp3.jpg


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#30 2006-12-10 17:14:04

Coolidge
Member
Posts: 1162

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tony Ventresca wrote:

Witness the power of a sack suit to pull young women (Tab Hunter, looking great).

You know, I really think we need to dispatch with the lingering idea that sack suits make you look like an old fart and unattractive to women.  Tweeds, bowties, and pipes, maybe, (though all 3 are great) but not suits.

There is so much evidence to the contrary. Personal experience included.

In fact, some would argue all you need is to be somewhat good looking and you can show up in anything. So why not the Ivy look?

Last edited by Coolidge (2006-12-10 17:15:01)

 

#31 2006-12-11 00:51:00

Terry Lean
Member
Posts: 2440

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Mr. Coolidge is spot-on as always.
Quite right to correct me not to mix up Trad as it is & Trad as it shoulda been.
When the reformation comes things will be clearer for all.

In England the Ivy suit certainly packs a punch. The suit that's not square and yet not a mannerist exaggeration like the Zoot or the Teddy drape. Smart yet cool.


"One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing"

 

#32 2006-12-12 10:01:13

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tab Hunter in the 1950s, illustrating the Ivy style in its (apparent) heyday.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6012/tabhunter4yq9.jpg http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2061/tabhunter2gi6.jpg

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8840/18oc4.jpg

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/76/12ks8.jpg http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2655/13kg6.jpg


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#33 2006-12-12 10:27:54

Terry Lean
Member
Posts: 2440

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Perfect.

Thanks -


"One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing"

 

#34 2006-12-12 16:55:23

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tab Hunter in the early 1950s.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1747/27031021950sp2.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1001/27031091955dp7.jpg


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#35 2006-12-13 00:49:25

Terry Lean
Member
Posts: 2440

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Looks like a London boy!

Especially in that Baracuta.

t.


"One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing"

 

#36 2006-12-13 16:18:27

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

The Kingston Trio.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6720/2kingston1446pbd3.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2238/2kngstn66zw1.gif


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#37 2006-12-14 17:00:57

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

I came across this chilling passage about the Ivy Leaguers working for the OSS and CIA. It's from an article written by Gore Vidal in 1976 about E. Howard Hunt entitled "The Art And Arts Of E. Howard Hunt". (Vidal refers to his subject as "H.H." throughout the article.)

Incidentally, both the OSS and its successor the CIA of the early cold war years were manned by fun-loving American nobles. Considering H.H.’s love of the patriciate, it is not impossible that his principal motive in getting into the cloak-and-dagger games was to keep the best company. The hick from western New York who had gone not to Harvard but  to Brown, who had not fought in the Second War but worked behind the lines, who had failed as a serious novelist found for himself in the CIA a marvelous sort of club where he could rub shoulders with those nobles whose savoir-faire enthralled him. After all, social climbing is one of the most exciting games our classless society has to offer.

But as Scott Fitzgerald suspected, the nobles are not like those who would serve them on the heights. They are tough eggs who like a good time whether it is playing polo or murdering enemies of the state. They take nothing seriously except their pleasures and themselves. Their admirers never understand this. Commie-hunting which is simply fun for the gamesters became for their plebian friend a holy mission. And so it is the true believer H.H. who is in the clink today while his masters are still at large, having good times. Of course they make awful messes, as Fitzgerald noted; luckily the Howies of this world are there to clean up after them.


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#38 2006-12-14 20:51:30

Patrick Bateman
Member
Posts: 1006

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tony, fascinating post. It will be interesting to see how The Good Shepherd (http://imdb.com/title/tt0343737/) treats this subject.


女性の鑑定家

 

#39 2006-12-14 21:25:16

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
Posts: 9046

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tony,

That article excerpt is really cool.


Le costume fait sur mesure en tissue Fresco est le préféré des ploucs!
Facebook: FNB Dandy  Twitter: @DevilsIslandFNB Instagram: fnbdandy

 

#40 2006-12-15 07:08:40

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Patrick Bateman wrote:

Tony, fascinating post. It will be interesting to see how The Good Shepherd treats this subject.

I'm looking forward to that film. The question I have is whether the film's costumer will attempt to achieve sartorial historical accuracy, or just put some "stuffy" suits on the men and consider his or her job done. Knowing how intellectually lazy Hollywood can be I suspect the latter, but I hope I am surprised. Of course, do we really know what an Ivy Leaguer would wear circa late 1940s?


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#41 2006-12-15 09:11:00

Patrick Bateman
Member
Posts: 1006

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

In the trailer, when the William Hurt character says, "You're going to have to learn the English system of intelligence," he's wearing a very nice covert coat with velvet collar. There are some DB suits with wide lapels on De Niro, and Damon wears a very nice club tie in one shot, and wears morning dress to his wedding I think. So, overall, I'm optimistic that the characters will look good and that the costumes will be reasonably accurate.


女性の鑑定家

 

#42 2006-12-16 16:05:29

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Here's the The Folksmen, a Kingston Trio knock-off group from the film A Mighty Wind, doing the look.

http://img429.imageshack.us/img429/8251/1ramblinbk6.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3889/1pickinkj0.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8573/1wishinsc2.jpg


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#43 2006-12-16 16:35:47

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

I have run across a wonderful article written by an ex-Yalie (med school) describing his/her experiences and memories, mostly focused around J Press, it seems. This is a crucial read for anyone interested in Ivy League style.

The article is too long to post, but here's a short quote:

...Those Yalies who do not want to be perceived as elitist and backward are careful not to be seen lingering in front of J. Press.


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#44 2006-12-16 22:22:10

Coolidge
Member
Posts: 1162

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

My dad still dresses like the middle picture of "The Folksmen" all summer long. Sans the white socks these days. Sans socks at all.

 

#45 2006-12-17 03:06:44

Terry Lean
Member
Posts: 2440

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tony Ventresca wrote:

I have run across a wonderful article written by an ex-Yalie (med school) describing his/her experiences and memories, mostly focused around J Press, it seems. This is a crucial read for anyone interested in Ivy League style.

The article is too long to post, but here's a short quote:

...Those Yalies who do not want to be perceived as elitist and backward are careful not to be seen lingering in front of J. Press.

Another fab find, Tone.
Even the Traddies get a mention at the bottom of the first para.!

Cooley: Great look. Your Pa is a man of taste.

t.


"One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing"

 

#46 2006-12-17 03:12:24

Terry Lean
Member
Posts: 2440

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Tony Ventresca wrote:

I came across this chilling passage about the Ivy Leaguers working for the OSS and CIA. It's from an article written by Gore Vidal in 1976 about E. Howard Hunt entitled "The Art And Arts Of E. Howard Hunt". (Vidal refers to his subject as "H.H." throughout the article.)

Incidentally, both the OSS and its successor the CIA of the early cold war years were manned by fun-loving American nobles. Considering H.H.’s love of the patriciate, it is not impossible that his principal motive in getting into the cloak-and-dagger games was to keep the best company. The hick from western New York who had gone not to Harvard but  to Brown, who had not fought in the Second War but worked behind the lines, who had failed as a serious novelist found for himself in the CIA a marvelous sort of club where he could rub shoulders with those nobles whose savoir-faire enthralled him. After all, social climbing is one of the most exciting games our classless society has to offer.

But as Scott Fitzgerald suspected, the nobles are not like those who would serve them on the heights. They are tough eggs who like a good time whether it is playing polo or murdering enemies of the state. They take nothing seriously except their pleasures and themselves. Their admirers never understand this. Commie-hunting which is simply fun for the gamesters became for their plebian friend a holy mission. And so it is the true believer H.H. who is in the clink today while his masters are still at large, having good times. Of course they make awful messes, as Fitzgerald noted; luckily the Howies of this world are there to clean up after them.

Love this.
Love the contrast between the games playing real McCoys and the white-knuckle this-is-serious-goddamit followers-on.
That translates very well to England too & I'm sure most of the world.
Evelyn Waugh writing about the first commando troops in WWII has this spirit.

Could this be the ultimate test of class?


"One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing"

 

#47 2006-12-17 08:50:54

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

The lesson I take away from the Gore Vidal quote is this:
It's okay to aspire to dress like an Ivy Leaguer, but don't aspire to act like one.


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#48 2006-12-20 16:24:40

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Here is a photo of a marketer named George Lois, who once worked for Esquire or something (nabbed from that Sartorialist website). Reading the comments on that website can be a scary experience, since they illustrate how marketing has killed any historical awareness in modern society.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6960/georgeloispf2.jpg


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

#49 2006-12-20 17:59:14

Ali Kebab
Member
Posts: 491

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

Is MIT Ivy League?

 

#50 2006-12-24 10:36:37

Tony Ventresca
Member
Posts: 5132

Re: The Ivy League Style: The Boom Years.

From an interview with Ed Mosher, an actor, magician, and local impressario (I think), who is discussing his activities after leaving the military in 1955. Finally we have a date we can work with: the Ivy League look had not yet spread to California by 1955, when Mosher opened his store, so the widespread adoption of the look dates from the late 1950s at the earliest.

When Mosher got his discharge, the movie business was still suffering from TV, foreign competition and the shenanigans of Senator Joe McCarthy, so Mosher, who even as a child had been entrepreneurial (he sold figs from his backyard door-to-door), decided to start a business.

"The next closest thing to theatre I could think of was men's clothing - it had lights, action, camera," Mosher said.

"And I hated the clothes we had in California, which were the so-called Hollywood look - baggy zoot suits and that kind of thing. I liked the Ivy League look, which hadn't reached California yet, so I opened the first clothing store in Northern California selling Ivy League clothes. Everyone laughed, but then Playboy and Sports Illustrated started writing about this new, Ivy League look, and it took off."


"Clothes make the man only if they fit." Carole Jackson
"Once upon a time, life was not better. It was just different." William Norwich
"This is one of the testimonial pictures that Satan uses in his brochures." Anonymous

 

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