Film Noir Buff Style Forum / Ivy in...Germany

Hard Bop Hank · 2010-04-27 12:24:03

Axelist wrote:
Wow, had to catch up quite a lot here.

It seems that indeed there might have been some Ivy traces here in Germany. Would be worth to dig deeper.

Yes, Hamburg is anglophile and seems to consider itself to be a sort of outpost of London. Especially in the olden days. What I forgot about were the "Swing kids / Swing Heinis" who dressed very "British" and listened to Swing which brought them a lot of pressure by the Nazis regime. One of their strongholds was Hamburg, but this leans more into the British influence direction.

The Swing Kids are an interesting topic indeed! Will help you work on that...

There was a continuity in the Jazz scene in Germany that was only broken by the Nazi years when it went underground, and of course there were always connections to the the scenes in the USA, as well as England, Italy, France, Poland and Czechoslovakia (sp?)....

Axelist wrote:
I think it indeed is best not to argue about "Bruderschaften" on here , I can see were eris is coming from although I think there is not only black and white but also some tiny bit of grey. But you are right, the "conservative" look has strong overlaps with the Ivy style. I guess because the conservative look leans to British style which was a strong influence on Ivy style.

.

Ivy is a conservative style, but there's conservative and there's conservative...

A huge part of the "Burschenschaften" is like the KKK...

I have to agree with eris when he is questioning the so-called "liberals"... the German "National Liberals" already sold the idea of liberty/ democracy for the idea of the "nation" in Bismarck times... best criticism of this kind of folk came from Max Stirner... this guy was way ahead of his time....

Axelist wrote:
And Hank, you mentioned Hans-Joachim Berendt. That's a guy we should try to find out more about. I know, he's dead, but I think it should have been impossible for him to travel the US together with Claxton in 1960 (I think) for weeks for his feature on the US Jazz scenes without picking up some clothes.

Behrendt was the man... read his "Jazz Buch" about 16 years ago... Check the "American Folk Blues" DVDs, too! He did a TV show "Jazz gehört und gesehen"... my father was always watching it... some of the AFB videos are from this show... most of them, in fact!

And yes, this cat had the look....

Axelist wrote:
Interesting what you wrote about the availability of chinos and loafers. I always thought the GIs supplied stuff like sweets, cigarettes, stockings and jeans. You live and learn.

all kinds of stuff, sweets and nylon stockings, too! huge on the black market...

forgot to mention military wear, all sorts of Army stuff...

and, maybe not on the black market, but despite the fact that the German car industry was really strong in the 50s/60s there was also a market for American cars...

Hard Bop Hank · 2010-04-27 12:25:43

I will ask some of my mates for photographs of their "German Ivy jackets", most of them darted, though...

Kingstonian · 2010-04-27 12:35:05

Axelist wrote:
It seems that indeed there might have been some Ivy traces here in Germany. Would be worth to dig deeper.

Yes, Hamburg is anglophile and seems to consider itself to be a sort of outpost of London. Especially in the olden days. What I forgot about were the "Swing kids / Swing Heinis" who dressed very "British" and listened to Swing which brought them a lot of pressure by the Nazis regime. One of their strongholds was Hamburg, but this leans more into the British influence direction.

I think it indeed is best not to argue about "Bruderschaften" on here , I can see were eris is coming from although I think there is not only black and white but also some tiny bit of grey. But you are right, the "conservative" look has strong overlaps with the Ivy style. I guess because the conservative look leans to British style which was a strong influence on Ivy style.

I did not notice any Hamburg Ivy. I got the first flight after the ash problem on Wednesday. It was grey and damp at first. Not the best weather for the poor streetwalkers in the Reeperbahn. A hard life wrapped up in all those clothes and carrying umbrellas. However, if you went down the street with the barriers, for over 18s - no women allowed, all the best looking prostitutes were relaxing in their windows, sitting around in their underwear. Drop dead gorgeous too, not at all brassy. I had to insist we went down there the next day and walked slower. Not that we were there as sex tourists - but you have to see what is going on. Hamburg pubs seemed to promote smoking as some sort of virtue. In fact it was something of a smokers town. Nothing particularly outstanding about the way people were dressed though. Sarf of the river we ended up in some pub on a council estate with all the asylum seekers. Regulars were proper Germans though -friendly despite our lack of German, probably all ex dockers.

Axelist · 2010-04-27 13:27:56

Kingstonian wrote:
Axelist wrote:
It seems that indeed there might have been some Ivy traces here in Germany. Would be worth to dig deeper.

Yes, Hamburg is anglophile and seems to consider itself to be a sort of outpost of London. Especially in the olden days. What I forgot about were the "Swing kids / Swing Heinis" who dressed very "British" and listened to Swing which brought them a lot of pressure by the Nazis regime. One of their strongholds was Hamburg, but this leans more into the British influence direction.

I think it indeed is best not to argue about "Bruderschaften" on here , I can see were eris is coming from although I think there is not only black and white but also some tiny bit of grey. But you are right, the "conservative" look has strong overlaps with the Ivy style. I guess because the conservative look leans to British style which was a strong influence on Ivy style.
I did not notice any Hamburg Ivy. I got the first flight after the ash problem on Wednesday. It was grey and damp at first. Not the best weather for the poor streetwalkers in the Reeperbahn. A hard life wrapped up in all those clothes and carrying umbrellas. However, if you went down the street with the barriers, for over 18s - no women allowed, all the best looking prostitutes were relaxing in their windows, sitting around in their underwear. Drop dead gorgeous too, not at all brassy. I had to insist we went down there the next day and walked slower. Not that we were there as sex tourists - but you have to see what is going on. Hamburg pubs seemed to promote smoking as some sort of virtue. In fact it was something of a smokers town. Nothing particularly outstanding about the way people were dressed though. Sarf of the river we ended up in some pub on a council estate with all the asylum seekers. Regulars were proper Germans though -friendly despite our lack of German, probably all ex dockers.

So, you did a stroll up and down the Herbertstrasse? I was in Hamburg two weeks ago. I was amazed that the "Kiez" (St. Pauli and Reeperbahn) still have those Streetwalkers and pubs like you described. I expected i all to be gentrifized. I guess you had some Astra beer?

I am not very often in Hamburg, the last time I was there for non-professional reasons is 15 years ago. Mrs. Axelist and I went to the Mojo club, those were the days.
Agree, there is not much ivy there. I would even say there is not much invy in the whole country.
Hamburg is / was a pretty rich town. As "the gate to the world", it was one of Germany's most important links to other countries in Europe and overseas. I was puzzeled to see old pics in Hoboken with all those large ships from Hamburg. Traders and shipping company owners, the Hanse - it has a long lasting tradition of money and cosmopolitanism. The rich Hamburger's style is very subtle, muted and pared down. Jil Sander, the formr "quenn of less" started in a quite posh part of Hamburg.

Axelist · 2010-04-27 13:31:11

Hank, keep it rollin. Your father seems to be in the know. Maybe we find something more about Berendt.

Ah yes, fraternities. As I get older, I get milder. The old enemies don't wind me up anymore. Still won't be caught in a Barbour.

Kingstonian · 2010-04-27 14:11:48

Axelist wrote:
So, you did a stroll up and down the Herbertstrasse? I was in Hamburg two weeks ago. I was amazed that the "Kiez" (St. Pauli and Reeperbahn) still have those Streetwalkers and pubs like you described. I expected i all to be gentrifized. I guess you had some Astra beer?

I am not very often in Hamburg, the last time I was there for non-professional reasons is 15 years ago. Mrs. Axelist and I went to the Mojo club, those were the days.
Agree, there is not much ivy there. I would even say there is not much invy in the whole country.
Hamburg is / was a pretty rich town. As "the gate to the world", it was one of Germany's most important links to other countries in Europe and overseas. I was puzzeled to see old pics in Hoboken with all those large ships from Hamburg. Traders and shipping company owners, the Hanse - it has a long lasting tradition of money and cosmopolitanism. The rich Hamburger's style is very subtle, muted and pared down. Jil Sander, the formr "quenn of less" started in a quite posh part of Hamburg.

The port is massive and impressive and a reminder that Germany is still a manufacturing powerhouse. Yes we drank Astra, Jever, Holsten, Duckstein (could not find Wickerlu (sp)) but mostly wheat beer from the South. I tried Matjus herring but got an enormous portion when I only needed a taste. Food was cheap enough though. I was surprised to see so many drinking beer on the trains. If it were allowed in the UK it would be menacing, but all European countries are more civilised than the UK now. I liked the system where the underclass go collecting the empties because there is a decent deposit on the bottles. All is recycled and everybody is happy.

To be honest, I am more at home in Southern Germany/Austria rather than Hanseatic city states. Went to see Hamburg SV versus Fulham. Should have also watched St Pauli win 6 1 on Friday but we did not know they had a game on. They seem like a good club to support - lots of character and central to the city. Hamburg SV is a long walk through a park to a big stadium where you are a long way from the pitch.

Lots of music in Hamburg even old acts like John Mayall had concerts advertised.

zuckermandl · 2010-04-27 14:34:00

I agree, the Burschenschaften/verbindungsstudenten thing is off-topic and a potential powder keg, but before I get put down as a racialist bigot I'd like to point out that there is a lot of grey there- whilst no fraternity will win, say, The Guardian's approval, most of them are not really voelkische Judenfresser.

zuckermandl · 2010-04-27 14:44:53

Regarding the Jazz angle- my father was a Jazz nut (he even was in a band that garnered an appearance at the famous Atrium Club in Vienna back in the fifties, and (for him at least) it was all about the music. The economic situation in Austria remained pretty austere throughout the 50s and the early 60s, and I would assume that most students (who were the main fan base) were far too pressed for cash to even consider hunting down American clothes- they didn't even have money for the records, they got everything off the radio (that would partially explain the odd mix of resolutely Trad Jazz and hypermodern Bebop that informs much of my father's record collection)- when they weren't busy hunting Jews through the streets of Vienna and drinking themselves senseless in 'beer duels', that is.

When I got into the Mod scene in the late 80s and asked my father whether he remembered any similar young men in 60s Vienna he genuinely did not understand what I meant- he thought I was talking about 'confirmed bachelors'.

Hard Bop Hank · 2010-04-28 04:33:11

Tony Ventresca wrote:
From our discussions here we know that the "Ivy League look" of the 1950s and 1960s was a mass style.

However, I ran across an interesting reference that illustrates how widespread it actually was: in Engel's book The 24-Hour Dress Code For Men (link), originally a German publication, there is reproduced on page 24 an advertisement showing three men in sack suits. The ad is dated from the 1960s. The suits are clearly high-buttoning 3-button sacks. The accompanying text reads "WITT -- Qualitatsanzuge in erstklassigen paBform".

Sack suits in Germany in the 1960s?
It must be a mass style...

Ivy for everyone.

(By the way, I don't recommend the book to anyone. But if you see it in a bookstore, flip to page 24 and have a look at the ad.)

Ah, Tony, could you please scan this ad?

Hard Bop Hank · 2010-07-09 07:47:47

a bump for this thread...

anybody else got this book Tony mentioned? Not to keen on buying books with male models in underwear on the cover...

Harpo · 2010-07-09 08:50:11

Hey the Burchenshaften! (spelling?) are they still going? I remember all that from 19th C. European history at school - Bismark, unification, the Zolverein, etc. Do you have duelling scars Zuckermandl? Makes me think of Flashman.......

Also - on the Jazz Germany tip - what about those two guys who started the Blues tours (Muddy, the Woolf, Sonny Boy, etc.) and TV specials in the 60's (can't remember the names) - they were German Jazz fans who were turned onto the Blues when visiting the states. Had a big influence on the British RnB boom - if you look at the audience of their TV specials there's a few Ivy-esque looking blokes.

Hard Bop Hank · 2010-07-09 09:04:09

we've mentioned them, but there has to be a little bit more on E.J. Behrendt etc... that's why I bumped this thread...

we also need a little bit period movies ... I will link some horrible Edgar Wallace trash! Be careful!

Tuckermandl is in a catholic, no-duelling Verbindung...

Harpo · 2010-07-09 09:16:03

Hmmmm, what's worse as an ordeal, Catholicism or sword fighting?

Howsabout "The Qullier Memorandum" - set in Germany, taut spy thriller, Pinter wrote the screen play, I think - I seem to remember some good schmutter in that?

Hard Bop Hank · 2010-07-09 09:17:22

Didn't know it! It can only be better than Edgar Wallace stuff....
Definitely if it's by Pinter!!!

Harpo · 2010-07-09 09:22:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iveB1P_FPT0

There you go. Good film, as I recall.

zuckermandl · 2010-07-09 09:23:26

So I am. But I do have a 'Schmiss'- makes me look like Harry Potter (or like a much older, gone-to-seed Daniel Radcliffe- I also wear vintage NHS gold frames).

Regarding Jazz in Germany and Austria- the 'scene', as it were, was huge, of outstanding quality (both home-grown and imported talent) and predated rock'n'roll as the music of choice for middle-class rebels. And that's before we even start on the mighty MPS label and its output during the late '60s to '70s- rediscovered and then re-packaged and re-sold as 'Acid Jazz' to Germany by people like Gilles Peterson (Mojo Club in Hamburg, Beatbox in Wuppertal- those were the days).

But I am not at all convinced by the sartorial angle- as I wrote earlier, my father and his friends were supremely unconcerned by such matters, it was the music first and foremost.

Moose Maclennan · 2010-07-09 10:15:27

Hard Bop Hank wrote:
a bump for this thread...

anybody else got this book Tony mentioned? Not to keen on buying books with male models in underwear on the cover...

Just googled what I think is the German version (http://www.buecher.de/shop/farb-stilber … /23838671/), but it seems to have Unterhosen Mann on it too...

If anyone in Germany has the Loriot DVD box set, do check out some of Vicco von Bülow's 1960s jackets and suits.

soulquentin · 2010-07-21 04:33:28

This is perhaps a little more mod than ivy, but I did not know that Levi's Sta Prest were available in the 60s in Germany. This ad is for sale on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Werbung-1965-Le … 2c55e3c473

'Neu in Deutschland. Bügelt man nie!"

Last edited by soulquentin (2010-07-21 04:34:00)

Rip Rig & Panic · 2010-07-21 04:36:14

You couldn't translate a bit of what the seller is saying, could you? Is it a magazine ad?

Axelist · 2010-07-21 04:37:04

soulquentin wrote:
This is perhaps a little more mod than ivy, but I did not know that Levi's Sta Prest were available in the 60s in Germany. This ad is for sale on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Werbung-1965-Le … 2c55e3c473

'Neu in Deutschland. Bügelt man nie!"

Great find! Sta Prest in Germ,any at that time, who would have thought that.

Moose Maclennan · 2010-07-21 05:05:41

Rip Rig & Panic wrote:
You couldn't translate a bit of what the seller is saying, could you? Is it a magazine ad?

Could, but most of what he's writing has nothing to do with the article. Sale apparently for a good cause.

Says he has 15 000-odd magazine ads, this one is 14 x 20 cm.

Moose Maclennan · 2010-07-21 05:09:13

Maybe one of us in D should put in a wee bid - a pity the pic is a bit blurred.

zuckermandl · 2010-07-21 08:06:39

Axelist wrote:
soulquentin wrote:
This is perhaps a little more mod than ivy, but I did not know that Levi's Sta Prest were available in the 60s in Germany. This ad is for sale on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Werbung-1965-Le … 2c55e3c473

'Neu in Deutschland. Bügelt man nie!"
Great find! Sta Prest in Germ,any at that time, who would have thought that.

Why not?!? By 1965 the standard of living in Germany was probably higher than in the UK.

Rip Rig & Panic · 2010-07-21 08:14:18

And has generally remained so, I would have thought.

Axelist · 2010-07-21 08:21:36

zuckermandl wrote:
Axelist wrote:
soulquentin wrote:
This is perhaps a little more mod than ivy, but I did not know that Levi's Sta Prest were available in the 60s in Germany. This ad is for sale on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-Werbung-1965-Le … 2c55e3c473

'Neu in Deutschland. Bügelt man nie!"
Great find! Sta Prest in Germ,any at that time, who would have thought that.
Why not?!? By 1965 the standard of living in Germany was probably higher than in the UK.

Probably.

#26 2010-04-27 12:24:03

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Axelist wrote:

Axelist wrote:

Axelist wrote:

Axelist wrote:

#27 2010-04-27 12:25:43

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#28 2010-04-27 12:35:05

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Axelist wrote:

#29 2010-04-27 13:27:56

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Kingstonian wrote:

Axelist wrote:

#30 2010-04-27 13:31:11

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#31 2010-04-27 14:11:48

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Axelist wrote:

#32 2010-04-27 14:34:00

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#33 2010-04-27 14:44:53

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#34 2010-04-28 04:33:11

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Tony Ventresca wrote:

#35 2010-07-09 07:47:47

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#36 2010-07-09 08:50:11

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#37 2010-07-09 09:04:09

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#38 2010-07-09 09:16:03

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#39 2010-07-09 09:17:22

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#40 2010-07-09 09:22:40

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#41 2010-07-09 09:23:26

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#42 2010-07-09 10:15:27

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Hard Bop Hank wrote:

#43 2010-07-21 04:33:28

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#44 2010-07-21 04:36:14

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#45 2010-07-21 04:37:04

Re: Ivy in...Germany

soulquentin wrote:

#46 2010-07-21 05:05:41

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Rip Rig & Panic wrote:

#47 2010-07-21 05:09:13

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#48 2010-07-21 08:06:39

Re: Ivy in...Germany

Axelist wrote:

soulquentin wrote:

#49 2010-07-21 08:14:18

Re: Ivy in...Germany

#50 2010-07-21 08:21:36

Re: Ivy in...Germany

zuckermandl wrote:

Axelist wrote:

soulquentin wrote:

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