Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

It may be Thistle here, it's oyster on the Harrisons website. They seem to promote it as awesome bread and butter City suit cloth.

Well, again this was several years ago and he may have had a few bad lengths which spooked him enough to pull the bunch. Buy a trouser length and have Mr Carvato make it up, see what he thinks.

What about Fine Classics and that other bunch Conquest?

All these books, Its too bloody confusing.

I doubt I will try them, any of them. For that look, I would rather go with either the H. Lesser 11 or 13 oz books. I've been using them for a while now and I like the look and feel, plus they will literally last forever; same with the LGB which has the added bonus of getting softer without a decay in fibre quality.

Outside of a small set of people, you dont get much of premium in the USA from observers for wearing a milled finish cloth. And to the naked eye, the Harrisons worsted flannel is shaved to the point where it is basically a milled finish. And how many of those do I need? Harrisons makes 4 versions of the FNB chalkie.

I am in a city where Harrisons Frontier and Mystique are handier cloths. And, I know those cloths are very popular in the UK (more so 'Frontier").

After that, i jump to the premier cru, cru classe, grand cru. Slightly more finish than the Lesser cloths (no finish at all) but still no shine to them.

I like the Frontier, my tailor was impressed by it. It needs to be pattered though.

A lot of the online cogs tend to confuse milled cloths with flannel. Milled cloths are something of a British thang. Italian mills don't seem to make them. Again, its a certain look which may not be your thing or suit your purpose.

I have the Premier Cru book, which had cloths that were remarkably similar to the now discontinued Minnis Crown Classic book. Two great books there, or should I say one great book!

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

I doubt I will try them, any of them. For that look, I would rather go with either the H. Lesser 11 or 13 oz books. I've been using them for a while now and I like the look and feel, plus they will literally last forever; same with the LGB which has the added bonus of getting softer without a decay in fibre quality.

Outside of a small set of people, you dont get much of premium in the USA from observers for wearing a milled finish cloth. And to the naked eye, the Harrisons worsted flannel is shaved to the point where it is basically a milled finish. And how many of those do I need? Harrisons makes 4 versions of the FNB chalkie.

I am in a city where Harrisons Frontier and Mystique are handier cloths. And, I know those cloths are very popular in the UK (more so 'Frontier").

After that, i jump to the premier cru, cru classe, grand cru. Slightly more finish than the Lesser cloths (no finish at all) but still no shine to them.

I like the Frontier, my tailor was impressed by it. It needs to be pattered though.

A lot of the online cogs tend to confuse milled cloths with flannel. Milled cloths are something of a British thang. Italian mills don't seem to make them. Again, its a certain look which may not be your thing or suit your purpose.

I have the Premier Cru book, which had cloths that were remarkably similar to the now discontinued Minnis Crown Classic book. Two great books there, or should I say one great book!

The difference is completely lost on Americans who maybe see soft, hard and shiny finishes. Actually, the Frontier premier cru and cru classe are most attractive to Americans. The Mystique and Havana, Lessers Tropical and LGB Tropical weight are of most use to New Yorkers because it gets very hot and humid here and even in winter, one can be in a mid eighty degree conference room. it's not unusual for a NYC professional to wear a 7-8 oz suit under an overcoat.

Well, it leaves all the more for me then. Seriously though, I understand why they wouldn't be popular with the young both here and in the US. They look old fashioned for one.

I like them for a particular look, like Reevesie said 'Tory boy' an old skool, old money patrician look. Chalkie, DB or 3 piece SBPL blue butcher stripe shirt, rich woven silk tie and a pair of black Oxfords. Great for work but not for play which demands a more 'refined' finish to the cloth IMO.

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

The difference is completely lost on Americans who maybe see soft, hard and shiny finishes. Actually, the Frontier premier cru and cru classe are most attractive to Americans. The Mystique and Havana, Lessers Tropical and LGB Tropical weight are of most use to New Yorkers because it gets very hot and humid here and even in winter, one can be in a mid eighty degree conference room. it's not unusual for a NYC professional to wear a 7-8 oz suit under an overcoat.

Well, it leaves all the more for me then. Seriously though, I understand why they wouldn't be popular with the young both here and in the US. They look old fashioned for one.

I like them for a particular look, like Reevesie said 'Tory boy' an old skool, old money patrician look. Chalkie, DB or 3 piece SBPL blue butcher stripe shirt, rich woven silk tie and a pair of black Oxfords. Great for work but not for play which demands a more 'refined' finish to the cloth IMO.

Maybe I am missing the difference. What exactly is it that a milled finish look has that the Lessers worsted and the Harrisons worsted flannel do not have; apart from an empirical? Maybe I need to do a visual comparison but when one is about town, who can tell the difference?


I have the old 12/13 oz Smiths charcoal chalk stripe worsted flannel in a DB suit. It will literally never wear out. I have a piece of the navy too, think I'll use it for throw pillows. It looks to me like a milled finish worsted. And, it is hairier than the 11oz Harrisons worsted flannel, which really looks milled to me.

The old money suit in the US is different. Part of the value of the Lessers look is that it intimidates Americans; which can be good if deployed properly. It has that Tellson's Bank seriousness. But there are some Americans who will think the absence of finish both on suit and shirt cloth is a sign of inferiority!

Well, I suspect some call them worsted flannels but I've always known them as full-milled cloths.

Here, the grey herringbone in the picture in the link below is a classic example of a milled cloth.

http://www.dugdalebros.com/dugdale.html

Film Noir Buff wrote:

formby wrote:

Film Noir Buff wrote:

Maybe I am missing the difference. What exactly is it that a milled finish look has that the Lessers worsted and the Harrisons worsted flannel do not have; apart from an empirical? Maybe I need to do a visual comparison but when one is about town, who can tell the difference?


I have the old 12/13 oz Smiths charcoal chalk stripe worsted flannel in a DB suit. It will literally never wear out. I have a piece of the navy too, think I'll use it for throw pillows. It looks to me like a milled finish worsted. And, it is hairier than the 11oz Harrisons worsted flannel, which really looks milled to me.

The old money suit in the US is different. Part of the value of the Lessers look is that it intimidates Americans; which can be good if deployed properly. It has that Tellson's Bank seriousness. But there are some Americans who will think the absence of finish both on suit and shirt cloth is a sign of inferiority!

Well, I suspect some call them worsted flannels but I've always known them as full-milled cloths.

Here, the grey herringbone in the picture in the link below is a classic example of a milled cloth.

http://www.dugdalebros.com/dugdale.html

I dug this up from an old correspondence from someone more in the know than I:

A milled flannel differs from a milled worsted in two main respects :-

        A  flannel is subjected to a milling process for a longer period and in addition it is cut on [both] the face
        and back [of the fabric] before being milled again  to give it a more compact (felt) finish

       A milled worsted has a shorter time being milled and is not cut at any stage

Hope this helps .

No new ranges are planned just yet .

Regards
Henry Lesser

Well, we have a definitive answer from a man in the know.

Get yerself some milled worsted and get Old Skoollllll............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the concept of cut vs fabric quality. I remember early on in my research I noticed that seemingly everyone in England wore the same fabric patterns from high to low and from naughty to nice. Several unrelated sources said that what separated the Barrister from the East End gangster wasn't so much fabric as the cut. It was then I began to understand that cut was king in the UK for mens' suits and that fabrics were a settled, secondary concern. I think this is partly because the English will not or cannot afford/concern themselves with expensive suit fabrics. Fabrics must be good quality but non spectacular.

In NYC, men make a great fuss over quality and fineness of the wool with unique patterns of cloth making much more of a splash than their cut. I think it's partly because of all the countries with a tailoring tradition, the USA is the most distanced from it and thus the impact comes from the uniqueness of cloth. At my tailor, it seems like there are a couple of customers who resent anyone else's presence, I have begun to believe partly because they feel they are the only ones in the world who know about tailors.

Certainly, until recently, part of the reason I liked strong chalk stripes is because they were never available here except through a custom tailor. Even today, the real first thing that people notice is the fabric. 

I am happy I made an anthropological study of the UK because I might have wandered off into the every suit a different fabric direction whereas the approach in the UK is a fixed number of acceptable patterns personalized with accessories. In the USA it is the opposite, accessories are generally bland with the suit delivering visual pop. But I think the English get it right for business clothes with the suit or dark sports coat a sort of dark monolith assailed with colorful or unique accessories.

I should add something here. England, for being a smaller country with a concept of exclusivity, actually has more of a broad spread cultural laundry list of taste for colors, fabrics, patterns and combinations of these (although acceptable shapes for clothes and suit cloth patterns are smaller). The USA, a more inclusive culture, actually has a smaller list of colors for ties, socks and shirts (although acceptable shapes are broader and suit pattern cloths can border on the bizarre). I think it's because an American (well, the average American, upper middle class America isn't that far off from English tastes) is hyper concerned with looking the same; eccentricity is frowned upon as imperfect and dysfunctional rather than talented and individual. One man in a meeting who identified himself to us as upper middle class  simply couldn't get over my pink socks. He was convinced he'd found something that pointed to weakness in my character. He was so delighted with himself that I realized what he was subliminally saying was that he grew up wearing a mullet. A real upper middle class American would have liked those socks even if he wouldn't have worn them and he certainly wouldn't have gone on and on pointing at them.

We celebrate the production line and the perfect heroic image of a man. Not to mention the vast majority of Americans are reinventing themselves or trying to fool those around them. Not for nothing do we use the plain white and blue shirt and the plain navy or grey suit as standards. The suit here is not just clothing it is a way to fit into "corporate" culture without any other apparent qualifications.