Tomasso wrote:

Horace wrote:

Note the flap pocket shirt (like the old Press shirts), but with the french cuff twist.  Hmmm.  Interesting.  Don't know if it quite works though.

That's a BD collar with french cuffs.  Although they're roundly pooh poohed by the arbiters,  I'll admit that I've come close to trying one out. Haven't quite been able to pull the trigger.

Bespoke makers, at least the ones actually making clothing, do not hold the so-called arbiters in high regard.  Master shirtmaker Sig. Siviglia believes that there are no rules or constraints in the design of a bespoke shirt.  When one spends $450 for a shirt, one calls the shots, sets his own rules and is not beholden to the pretenders. Lastly,before assigning the position of arbiter of style to anyone, be sure they are even worthy of the title.  Few truly are.  One such self-proclaimed arbiter wears mostly ill-fitting ready-made junk.  I guess you can say he pulls the worsted wool over everyone's eyes. 

Marc

Last edited by Marc Grayson (2006-05-09 19:56:03)

Tomasso wrote:

Marc Grayson wrote:

Tomasso wrote:

That's a BD collar with french cuffs.  Although they're roundly pooh poohed by the arbiters,  I'll admit that I've come close to trying one out. Haven't quite been able to pull the trigger.

Bespoke makers, at least the ones actually making clothing, do not hold the so-called arbiters in high regard.  Master shirtmaker Sig. Siviglia believes that there are no rules or constraints in the design of a bespoke shirt.  When one spends $450 for a shirt, one calls the shots, sets his own rules and is not beholden to the pretenders. Lastly,before assigning the position of arbiter of style to anyone, be sure they are even worthy of the title.  Few truly are.  One such self-proclaimed arbiter wears mostly ill-fitting ready-made junk.  I guess you can say he pulls the worsted wool over everyone's eyes. 

Marc

Point taken and I wholly agree but you must admit that there's something a bit dodgy about a BD shirt with french cuffs. And, this coming from a fellow who once ordered a white shirt with blue contrasting collar and cuffs. No, I can get jiggy but I just can't quite decide if I really dig the look. I also know that it can be easily changed if need be but ...................

I definitely see your point, it would be an unusual combination, but this is mostly due to convention.  At the same time  (and not to sound pedantic), style is a personal expression for many, and if someone wants to stand out, a BD collar with French cuffs is likely to provide that effect since ready-made shirts of this design are rare.

I don't normally care for the demin shirting, but it looks pretty damn good with that herringbone jacket and tie.  Vaclav has a tie like that.

Marc Grayson wrote:

I definitely see your point, it would be an unusual combination, but this is mostly due to convention.  At the same time  (and not to sound pedantic), style is a personal expression for many, and if someone wants to stand out, a BD collar with French cuffs is likely to provide that effect since ready-made shirts of this design are rare.

Marc -- 

not directed at you, as I've observed in your photographed jackets and such, that you've got an understated, good taste, but I've always been hesistant to have anything made (on those occasions when I've gone bespoke) that would "stand out".  And usually I find the bespoke choices that others make in order to stand out to be in dubious taste.

Having said that, I did like some Turnbull "bond" cuffed plain white shirts that I saw yesterday.  Not exactly run-of-the-mill, but neither do they "stand out" either.

Horace

Just thinking about Denim shirts...

I often wear very well pressed chambray shirts in different shades of blue with dark knit not-too-wide ties.
It's a nice look.
Chambray is obviously lighter in weight than Denim so maybe you can do a bit more with it - dress it up or down even on the hottest days.

Just a thought.

Miles

Ted wrote:

Never liked denim or chambray shirts, a little too working class/factory.  I do like the color when used in other shirts.

Good point, Ted...
But I think the real point is that by dressing up a workwear item like a denim/chambray shirt with a silk tie & a herringbone jacket you have this incredible dynamic going on for those who can read the language of clothes.
The shirt is out of context in a formal wear (-ish) setting and so it packs this real punch.

Only an opinion.

Miles

Ted wrote:

Never liked denim or chambray shirts, a little too working class/factory.  I do like the color when used in other shirts.

Disagree with the class connotations of chambray.  Esp. a very light-weight chambray like Chet Baker wore.  Though I could very well
be ignorant of the general class connotations of that fabric.
I will try to post my chambray button-downs from Andover.

Horace,

Thanks for these great images, very interesting indeed.  Miles has a theory about the modern Bean shirts, which hopefully he might post on here. If he does so, I'd be interested in your comments.

Chris

Miles Away wrote:

Chris_H wrote:

Horace,

Thanks for these great images, very interesting indeed.  Miles has a theory about the modern Bean shirts, which hopefully he might post on here. If he does so, I'd be interested in your comments.

Chris

I was trying to describe the current Bean OCBD to a friend and could only come up with it being remarkably like a mid-eighties Hathaway in both the cut & collar style. Especially the collar. Out of sheer boredom I then dug out an '87-ish Hathaway made in Waterville, Maine (I think... I've put it away again now) just to compare. I then dug out various Bean shirts from '85 to date.
I wonder if Hathaway ever made for Bean back when Bean sold US made OCBDs?
And if so, is Bean still using an old Hathaway pattern (with maybe a few tweaks) for their current made-in-wherever offering?
It could just be a coincidence (these things do happen), but if not then it's maybe an interesting-ish story? The Hathaway shirt's bastard son living on at Bean?

Miles

Oh and as ever, Horace, your pictures are superb. There is little of interest to me elsewhere on the net that comes even close to your input. Thanks! Please keep them coming.

I don't know the answer to your query, but it's certainly possible that Bean was using Hathaway.  The collar was similar -- or had the similar feel of the lining of some of my Hathaways from Press.

It's my understanding that the patterns from Hathaway, and some of the machinery and crew went to Forsyth in Canada.  They make a shirt similar to Hathaway.  They made for Press, though I was unhappy with the shirts from them at the time.  The collars and shirt-sleeve lengths  on their french cuffed shirts -- which I recall were oxford cloth --  seemed to shrink quite a bit (one full size on the sleeve and about 1/2 size on the collar).

Hi Horace,

Thanks for giving my Hathaway theory your consideration. Whoever really knows the 'real' story behnd these things?

Your pics go from strength to strength - So much style!
I love reading around the adverts too... a glimps into a lost world.
I am still no nearer to pinning down Chet Baket's 'Venetian' loafers or getting the low-down on the Yale Coop... My studies, as ever, go on...

All the best -

Miles

Horace wrote:

I'm pleased to note that our old friend Skip from AA&AAC has taken note of this thread and repeated some of what's gleaned from it, there.

It's sad they cannot post a link inside.

Hartmut vR wrote:

Horace, how long have you been collecting these old ads?  Do you scan these individually? It is very interesting.

AS for the button down collar, I am not a fan.  Also, why would a shirt for wearing with the suit have a flap on the pocket?  What does one put in the pocket that would be at risk of flying about?  Why would there be a pocket anyway?  Or is this a working shirt?

Von Roth,

I don't collect them, really.  I picked up the CDROM of the New Yorker, at Bothist's suggestion, and occasionally browse and issue and "save" an image if I like it or think it illustrative of a point.

As for why a flap (or a pocket at all for that matter), I dunno.  I like the flap pocket because it's so dowdy.  I don't; think there's really a risk of the flap flapping about (it does have a button, after all).  Perhaps pockets appear more with the decline of the 3 piece suit, though from what I've seen of the old ads, pockets were there before the popularity of the 3 piece declined.  As for "working shirt" if you mean that in the pejorative, I'll take the bait...  And more often than not, I'll take the pocket.  Even on bespoke.  Though I appreciate the plain front of a rich end-on-end french cuffed shirt.