I can remember the electric being cut off when I was a kid because Mum and Dad couldn’t afford to pay the bill, so my lot weren’t exactly loaded, nor has anyone ever left me any large sums of money or property to sell off, its never going to happen (good luck to anyone who does inherit though). But I’ve done better for myself than most of my relatives and the majority of the people I went to grammar school with, many of whom went on to do A Levels or degrees. But I wouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking I’m better than any of them or anyone. Superiority whether its intellectual or based on material success is deeply unattractive. I have great respect for the people who do the humdrum jobs for little reward and keep everything going for society. I reserve any hating, loathing or despising for our capitalist masters and their political lackeys.

I'm uncertain as to who or what a 'capitalist master' is supposed to be.  Branson?  Gates?  Fred The Shred?  Or that cartoon figure with the fat cigar and the top hat?

I was born working class and clothes wise it meant I didn't have much but what I did have i looked after. Shoes were polished not just for looks but for preservation. Clean shirts ironed properly etc. Pride in appearance was everything. Suited and booted on a Saturday night. I saw hippies as some kind of middle class indulgence and I didn't meet a middle class person until I went to University . Our doctor was Indian and our school teachers were from working class backgrounds made good. I was brought up in a mono culture but I loved it. But I wanted more. Dressing Ivy came naturally. For a time I loved all things American (at least that NE part) and danced to the soul music. I liked the can do attitude and I felt the sky was the limit.

Well stated points. It goes without saying but dressing in a self-respecting manner today means much more than it did in mid-century NE. The laborers of that time would still wear sport coats for holidays and weekends. There was a stern practicality and utilitarianism to the simplicity of a blazer, button-down and chinos/slacks. If you wanted to express your 'individuality' (i.e vanity) you'd don an ascot or a novel pocket square. There was much less of a desire to make a statement of any sort whatsoever. Of course dressing self-respectably today is quite a statement in itself. One said it is rather punk to dress well today and I thought how bizarre. Indeed how bizarre to be writing about clothing on an online forum. Our forefathers would blush to consider the amount of time and effort we expend on such frivolous endeavours which they gave nary a thought to. Sign of the times for better or worse.

Naturally we owe everything to the British upper classes whom the early US merchant class to the Boston Brahmins nicked in terms of customs, manners and dress. A diluted form of your Lords if you will.

I genuinely think Ivy between the two countries is very different and not necessarily just around class. In the UK Ivy has a bigger set of influences to incorporate such as French Films, Soho Modernism, Contemporary art, architecture and furniture.

I see it as a number of different strands that complement one another based upon a historical time line as much as aesthetics. Yes, you can just be into the clothes, but I know from the very existence of this forum there's a lot of guys who have similar tastes.

My love of the Ivy Clothes is influenced as much by their subtle non-conformity as by their design aesthetics.

When you go into Press you can see a few items similar to John Simons but the way they're presented is very different. More like Cordings or to a lesser extent Hackett. It has an old money feel to it.

I'm afraid drollery was not quite my intention.  As I've said before, some on here witter on like my Sixth Form students years ago, forever railing against capitalism whilst living in the lap of luxury in centrally-heated homes.  They tended to behave as though their latest electronic toy had been assembled in a spare moment by former boy soldiers in Angola rather than some geek in California. 
The Americans have a class system, too, don't they?  Doesn't everyone, more or less?  Else a pecking order?

'The Americans have a class system, too, don't they?  Doesn't everyone, more or less?  Else a pecking order?'

As far as I know, everywhere in the world the class system refers to how much wealth someone has. Except in the UK, where your social class is to do with where you were educated, how you speak, what your hot drink of choice is and other bizarre factors. Wealth barely comes into it, although of course that's where the whole system derives.

Drinking an espresso in Italy is like having a cup of tea in England i.e. classless and normal. In the UK, drinking an espresso is a sign of being middle or upper class.

Rux - ‘Naturally we owe everything to the British upper classes whom the early US merchant class to the Boston Brahmins nicked in terms of customs, manners and dress. A diluted form of your Lords if you will.’

Another one of those strange twists of fate. A large portion of those upper classes, particularly the ones with inherited stately homes and land, dress like they don’t have two farthings to rub together.

And a big difference between The US and UK; we seem to have developed a system where if you’re doing well for yourself, it’s a best to keep your head down and not shout about it. Certainly not show it off by wearing ‘flashy’ clothes. If you don’t adhere to that there’s an implication that you’ve got no taste. New money.

I really don’t think there’s a British equivalent of The American Dream. Which I think has proved to be very much to our detriment.

Well it doesn’t cost much does it? If the aim is as simple as being fully dressed in public?

Better to spend a pittance on trash from Primark or Sports Direct and spend your money on phone credit or a Sunday lunch at McDonald’s. 

Not only do we hate the idea of anyone else bettering themselves. We hate ourselves doing it. Try explaining the concept of inverted snobbery to that Cuban fella

Last edited by Spendthrift (2022-03-01 09:55:52)

'Bettering oneself' is a loaded phrase.  I like the phrase 'the life of the mind' better, first uttered (in my hearing) by the Marxist Professor Ian Bell, who I had the privilege of knowing between 1989 and 1992, and reiterated by Patricia Bosworth in her superb biography of Diane Arbus.  Read 'The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius' if you want to know about your place in this cosmos of ours. 
The Quakers say, 'I am better than no man, no man is better than me'.

One assumes you've never done any.

If we can set the concept of class on one side for a moment, didn't John Simons have something interesting to say about removing an item from its original context and thereby redefining it?  A shoe worn by a business executive in the United States thus becomes the footwear of choice for a London boy on his night out.