Yes. But I think that's always gone on hasn't it? A lot of us wear shoes invented and intended for yachting. Polo shirts? Golf jackets?

When it comes to smarter clothing, I think a lot of people like the idea of being 'subversive' - but I'm not convinced that anyone apart from the player is interested in what's going on there.

He was possibly running in parallel (give or take) with Cecil Gee? I think Gee started off selling the 'American' look, albeit sold as being very Hollywood glitz and glamour. Not 'under the radar' at all, slightly before JS. But switched to dressing everyone like little Italians later on. 

I don't know if that 'Italian look' was worn out of context at the time though. Just a change of style from the Edwardian look that went before.

Last edited by Spendthrift (2022-03-02 03:50:14)

I suppose, thinking about it, nowadays an awful lot of clothing is worn out of context isn't it? Even something as basic as a training shoe.

There's an argument that the Teds were subverting the Edwardian style. Although I'm not sure many of them knew or cared about that. They would have wanted to be little Americans wouldn't they?   

Malcolm McLaren 're-subverted' that look for his own ends later.

Auberon Waugh used to ask what people who wore 'trainers' imagined they were training for.  Yes: I tend to wear Russell Athletic sweatshirts or even golf jackets whilst doing the food shopping. 
'Esquire' tended to be very precise about what should be worn where - and when.  Very precise.
I think the teddy boys aped western gunfighters at least as much as Edwardian style.  I'm pretty certain America was highly attractive to them.  They would probably have hob-nobbed with American servicemen.  Also, look at Roger Mayne's studies of North Kensington, with its Coca-Cola signs. 
Malcolm was an original, a contrarian, a shameless opportunist, a great entertainer.  I've seen at least one photograph of him in full ted gear.

You are right Skipper. But I don't have any experience of being American to be able to pontificate on the system over there.

If someone starts a conversation regarding 'class' I can only approach it from within the English context.

I think most of us here on TI are very aware that it is just a small part of a much bigger thing in The US.

Spendthrift:"You are right Skipper. But I don't have any experience of being American to be able to pontificate on the system over there.

If someone starts a conversation regarding 'class' I can only approach it from within the English context.

I think most of us here on TI are very aware that it is just a small part of a much bigger thing in The US."

It is very important for me to point out that I do not want to offend anyone. But some give the impression that the "English view of things" is set in stone. Then I feel motivated to classify things correctly. It's perfectly fine to adopt the clothing aspect of this lifestyle for yourself. However, if you deny context and history, it becomes problematic. Especially because many of the so-called "heritage brands" are criticized for this very reason.

^ Jews unite us...

Tworusselstreet:"Skipper makes my point for me. Americans think Ivy is their version of posh. They think it is correct and proper and trad and all about good manners and clean nails and all that stuff. The Jews did such a bloody good job with all of the superb manufacturing and marketing over there that Americans actually fell for the myth!"

It couldn't be presented in a more wrong and distorted way. This depiction proves either cluelessness or ignorance of facts. But if believing it makes you happy, then believe it. I couldn't care less.

This is a chasm seemingly incapable of being bridged.  The same disagreements were pumping away quite merrily even before I appeared on 'Talk Ivy' in 2008.

Lest we forget and overreach ourselves, TRS worked at the Ivy Shop and at Russell Street and has co-authored two major books on the subject of Ivy style.  He has not received sufficient credit for the latter, simply because Marsh has the 'name'. 
Mr.Strachan remains beyond reproach.

^ agree. If you post strong opinions about anything on the internet then someone is liable to come along and challenge them.

Courtesy of the Bluffers Guide to British Class, the 'haven't two pennies to rub together look' goes to Lord Longford. I've never heard of him but certainly a curious fellow given a precursory look.

Rux
'Courtesy of the Bluffers Guide to British Class, the 'haven't two pennies to rub together look' goes to Lord Longford. I've never heard of him but certainly a curious fellow given a precursory look.'

A girlfriend (friend) introduced me to Lord Longford in 1972 in the Leeds University Union. My streetwise nonce radar was immediately on red alert. His appearance was eccentric to say the least but he was very friendly. I was a good looking boy so I thought he was to be avoided..Turns out he was a family man with eight kids. I never did find out what my girlfriend's connection to him was but she was as mad as a bunch of frogs as well. Perhaps a family connection?

Last edited by RobbieB (2022-03-03 08:22:34)