Skipper -  ‘ This whole business with jazz and the democratization of Ivy is a very strange historical distortion, which is mainly cultivated in Great Britain.’
- It’s well documented that some jazz musicians took up the style for a short period and it’s well documented that the style went mainstream in the US for a short period, you make this point yourself. Overall these events are but a blip on the graph in the history of a style that has been around for decades. Anyone who has spent any time looking into it would acknowledge the origins of the style as being amongst East Coast WASPs. It’s largely a matter of which prism you like to view it through, I like the jazz and democratised style prism myself and so do many on both sides of the Atlantic.

‘Of course, anyone can live by the values of this group, dress accordingly, and work towards achieving social status.’

- True of course, some take it a step further and believe that putting on the clothing will somehow imbue them with knightly qualities, which is equally ridiculous. Wearing a particular style of clothing for the purposes of social climbing would be the antithesis of cool, unless of course one views social climbing as a virtuous pastime.

No way does anyone of genuine 'pedigree', one of Skip's self-identifying US Ivy elite, spend a millisecond of their precious time here debating the minutiae of button-down collars with British nutcases. The online Americans tend to be desperate arrivistes like the ultimate phoney, Chinny Chensvold, who sought an identity with a pseudo-elite, only to return to his Mom and Pop with his polo coat in tatters. Kind of like a reverse version of what happened with Frosty Mellor.

Woofboxer:"It’s well documented that some jazz musicians took up the style for a short period and it’s well documented that the style went mainstream in the US for a short period, you make this point yourself. Overall these events are but a blip on the graph in the history of a style that has been around for decades. Anyone who has spent any time looking into it would acknowledge the origins of the style as being amongst East Coast WASPs. It’s largely a matter of which prism you like to view it through, I like the jazz and democratised style prism myself and so do many on both sides of the Atlantic."

You're absolutely right and I'm not disputing that at all. Everyone can prioritize what they want. To claim that this short period of time is decisive and that everything else is to be neglected is not just historical misrepresentation, but also dubious.

Woofboxer:"True of course, some take it a step further and believe that putting on the clothing will somehow imbue them with knightly qualities, which is equally ridiculous. Wearing a particular style of clothing for the purposes of social climbing would be the antithesis of cool, unless of course one views social climbing as a virtuous pastime."


I think the need for social advancement is absolutely justified and I have great respect for people who have managed to build something for themselves without the help of a wealthy family.


As for the rest, we have no dissent.

AFS - ‘ Skipper is an American gentleman, is he not?  There have been many like him over the years.’

… and very welcome they are too.

Woof - you always have your tongue firmly lodged up American cracks. You can take the 'Special Relationship' too far you know...

I'd like to read a very detailed book on the US retail sector during the Boom Years: providing demographic information and sales.  Nice advertising (maybe from 'Esquire' and the 'New Yorker'), too, of course.  I'd like something that manages to avoid the usual stereotyped images.  Oh, and I'd like s short list of stores still stocking classic collegiate jackets and strides (aside from, say, O'Connell's). 
Treat that last bit unseriously...

Oh yes.  I still have a lovely tie from 'Milton's Clothing Cupboard'.  I picture Milt, tape measure slung around his neck, glasses falling off his nose, ordering pastrami and Swiss on rye for his luncheon, dreaming of retirement.  Miami maybe.  Played by the great Martin Balsam.  For all it's worth.  Script by Neil Simon.

TRS lies in ambush...

Woofboxer:"Oh dear, just when I thought I was doing so well in the eyes of the Ivy politburo. A wrong foot is all it takes to tip you from model citizen to someone needing re-education. Still, if I’m banished to the gulag at Martha’s Vineyard I’ll go quietly."

The only correct response to this blunt, history-bending, clueless and condescending nonsense.

As for That Book, I enjoyed it but didn't take it too seriously.  It was an artefact, a confection, a little travelling companion.

But not Holy Writ.

"TRS has always, as long as I've been posting and doubtless before, had a very specific take on Ivy League dressing.  I would be the last person in the world to contradict him without filling my slingshot with plenty of ammunition beforehand.  He worked in two of the significant shops and rubbed shoulders with an awful lot of interesting people.  I have always read his contributions with great interest.  But the UK-US conflict, whipped up by Frosty Mellor, goes on and on.  In fact, it's getting quite like old times on 'Talk Ivy'."



I'm not suggesting that he has no idea about the subject. I know he knows his stuff well. However, he is highly biased and sells his personal views as facts, mixing it with politics and class warfare in a very ideological way. In addition, he immediately becomes offensive when someone contradicts him. Overall not the level I'm used to in discussions.

I respect the British interpretation of the issue. However, it only illuminates a tiny part and enriches it with things that originally had nothing to do with it. Anyone who claims that only this interpretation is valid and that all others can be neglected is, as I have already mentioned, falsifying history.

I remember similar issues with Tony.  I've no idea what kind of background he came from or, indeed, what happened to him.  He was opinionated but often interesting, although I think his attachments to Boom Years names had become fanciful at a time when many, even in American cities, were finding it difficult (to say the least) to source the clothing they desired.  In England (and elsewhere in Europe), well, we were simply doing the best we could - which might involve frequent (or infrequent) trips to Russell Street, then Chiltern Street.  I believe some visiting Americans may have dropped in. 
But TRS can be rather subjective, to say the least of it.  I'm as English as liver and onions but have an (admittedly) romanticized notion of the United States that simply refuses to fade away.  I believe others on here share those leanings, to a greater or lesser degree.