Odd, over the weekend we went out with some consultancy guru to the monosodium glutomate world and he was telling us about the above phenomenon and how Saville Row is dieing.

Morning Gentlemen. My name is Adam King and I am the owner of King & Allen. I thought I would login and encourage you to pose me questions about my suits in the hope that I might be able to sway your opinions. I'm not trying to sell you my service - instead I am trying to encourage a debate around how whether it is possible to tailor a decent bespoke suit for £499.  You are welcome to respond through this forum. Otherwise you may contact me on 020 8390 6134 or via my email, adam.king@kingandallen.co.uk. I look forward to hearing from you.

Last edited by The_Shooman (2009-12-11 07:52:45)

Hi Jake,

Thanks for your comments, and I’m delighted that you’re interested in opening the debate.

I would like to start honestly and frankly and say that I found one of your comments grossly unfair and actually quite hurtful:

“Do you fulfill the criteria of the Savile Row Bespoke Association? If not, this doesn't mean your suits are awful, it just means they're (probably) made-to-measure, not bespoke.”

A made-to-measure suit is made by adjusting an existing pattern whereas a bespoke suit has a unique and individual pattern cut for the client. In no way are King & Allen suits made to measure and I strongly object to this accusation.

Your comment is about cut, whereas the list you gave is only concerned with tailoring methods. They are separate parts of the process.

In short, the reason I have opened this debate today is because I believe that King & Allen shares a lot more in common with your view on bespoke tailoring than you may think. Firstly, I believe in excellent service, in providing each customer with an experience that they can enjoy long after the suit has been completed; secondly, I believe in making suits that fit the wearer perfectly, not just to their body shape but to the daily requirements of the suit itself; finally, I will not compromise on quality. I demand the absolute best from my tailors – from the raw materials used to the construction of the suit itself. To give you an indication, below is a list (by no means complete) of the features of my suits:

•    A unique pattern for each individual customer, cut by hand by a master cutter with at least 14 years experience.

•    A fully floating canvass.

•    Top quality cloths from France, Italy, Spain and the UK.

•    Hand finishing throughout, including working cuffs.

•    Baste fittings

One thing I could never make claim to is the wonderful heritage that goes with Savile Row – but this debate is about tailoring and not history. I also feel that we have a noble heritage of our own kind attached to our suits, since the good people of Hong Kong have been making suits for the English (by whom they were trained) since the mid-nineteenth century. Indeed, my man in HK is a third generation tailor.

The average age of the King & Allen customer is about 35, with a salary of about 35K per annum. I service an entirely different market to Savile Row, and I do not want that to change. Indeed, I spend tens of thousands of pounds a year on advertising, encouraging people to sample bespoke tailoring. I have no doubt that as they mature in age and wealth many of my customers will leave me and go to Savile Row. So rather than ‘devaluing the term’ or ‘contributing to the decline of Savile Row’, as you claim, I would argue quite the opposite – I believe I am injecting a much needed lease of life into the industry by introducing people to the world of bespoke at an earlier time in their lives – and on a much larger scale.

Indeed, I have no problem with my customers leaving me for the Row. I would like to think it was a natural progression, much like travelling first class!

With regards to your list of criteria. It is worth noting that the list Savile Row bespoke have produced are guidelines, not criteria and members do not have to adhere to all of them.

I couldn’t help but notice you have chosen 14 of the most obscure and technical from the list! I am grateful to you for the challenge. Please find below my response:

1.    Sufficient inlays to allow 3 inches adjustment to the main body seams

YES

2. All linings felled by hand

YES

3. Hand prick-stitched vent and front edge

YES

4. Slanting breast pocket with hand stitched border

NO, BUT SOON TO BE YES.

5. Top collar hand draw-stitched onto the facing

YES

6. Hand stitched front buttonholes and left lapel buttonhole with sewn flower loop. Inlay under collar.

YES

7. Cuff with opening slit

YES

and hand stitched buttonholes

NO – I DON’T THINK ANYONE DOES ANYMORE BUT I MAY BE WRONG…

8. Armhole lining eased and hand felled

YES

9. Front and cuff buttons sewn on by hand with cross-stitch

YES

10. Hand top-stitching on the front pockets

NO

11. Linen used to reinforce pockets and gorge

NO. WE DON’T BELIEVE IT’S NECESSARY.

12. Sleeves set in by hand

YES

13. Hand cut and shaped shoulder pads and canvases

YES

14. Hand canvassing on jacket foreparts.

YES

Once again, these are guidelines not criteria. All tailors have their own ways of doing things and are notoriously proud (and stubborn!). You can’t teach a old dog new tricks, as they say, and I would be surprised if all the members of SRB adhered to all of these – or even as many as me. But I’m prepared to be proved wrong if you have posed these questions to others in the past…

If you have any more questions I would be happy to oblige.

Best wishes,

Adam

Dear Bishop,

I hope you don’t mind but for the benefit of those readers who may be less familiar with the tailoring process I have provided extra information which I’m sure you already know. I hope that’s ok.


1.    Describe the construction of the bespoke suits - full/half canvassed or fused.

King & Allen suits are fully canvassed. This is a very laborious and labour intensive method of constructing the front face of the jacket – arguably the most important part of a suit. It is therefore a sign of quality in craftsmanship to offer one. Off the peg suits are fused (glued) which is quick and easy and can be done by a robot. The problem is that glue does not respond well to a) dry cleaning or b) rain water. The dry cleaning process heats the glue and as it re-cools it causes the interfacing to shrivel which looks terrible. Rainwater will cause the glue to get wet and expand. As it dries and contracts, so the shriveling happens again. Not good. A fully floating canvass contains only natural products: wool, buckram, cotton (in the thread) etc. These products don’t mind getting wet or hot.


2. How many measurements are taken for each customer?

20-30 depending on the body shape and sex of the client.

3. Does each customer have a personal pattern?

Each client has a unique pattern cut for them from a single roll of cloth, to their measurements and specifications, by a jolly old boy with a glass table, a big pair of scissors and a measure around his neck. We may be modern in many ways but in the construction of our suits we are very old fashioned.

4. How are the suits cut - by cutter or machine?

Not a machine in sight! Please see above.

5. How are the suits made - hand-sewing or machine?

A combination of the two. To my knowledge no one has made a suit entirely by hand since the invention of the sewing machine. It would be folly, since there are so many aspects of the construction that the machine does better than the hand. As with everything in life – it’s about finding the perfect balance.

6. How many fittings does each customer have?

The first fitting is the ‘baste’ or ‘skeleton’ fitting, whereby the customer tries on a partially constructed suit. This is where the real artistry comes in, as at this stage we establish all the most significant aspects of the cut and shape of the suit. At the second fitting the client tries on the completed garment and we would then expect 1 or 2 fittings after that. These are usually minor tweaks such as making it slightly more fitted or altering the hang of the trousers. We have a team of highly experienced tailors here in the UK who conduct these fittings.

We have honed this process over many years – we know that our customers are busy and want as few fittings as possible but equally we are not prepared to compromise on the fit – or the enjoyment of the experience. Not everyone gets the baste fitting. For our slimmer customers it is not necessary. But if you want one you have just have to ask.

After service:
It is of course entirely up to the client if he or she wishes to return for further tweaking – even after they have taken the suit away.

Apologies if your questions were not answered as thoroughly as you would have liked when you rang us two years ago. Hopefully I have corrected that today.

Best wishes,

Adam

Agree with Formby about the photo. Even the jackets on dummies have creased arms. A fundamental of presenting a garment should be to eliminate creasing. Otherwise it looks like you do not care.

One more question. What cloths do you offer ?

Folks,

This is not something I normally do, I'm more of a lurker.
However over the past 4 years or so I've become more and more intereseted in bespoke tailoring.

I am also in the position of owning a suit from King and Allen.  I thought, therefore, I would share with you my thoughts on my experience and the product itself.

I will firstly admit, I am not a bespoke expert.  My current knowledge comes from much reading of forums, blogs, newspaper articles and taking up the time of many a tailor in his shop when he has better things to do.

I secondly point out that my experience happened in mid 2006, the company and its product may be totally different.

Thirdly my opinions are just that, no offence is meant, however I will give you my honest thoughts in the most constructive manner, if you do not like them ignore me or ban me.

I needed a new suit for a wedding, I had been doing some reasearch, mainly on askandy, styleforum, londonlounge and englishcut.  I found King and Allen during one of the many google searches for "bespoke suits" and booked my appointment.

I turned up at the City of London pub function room they had hired for the afternoon,  I was then handed on to the man who measured me,  I asked firstly to look at some of the suits they made.  I was a novice, this was my first 'bespoke' suit'.  I checked over the product looking for things like keyhole button holes, which I couldn't see,  I asked a couple of other questions of the mearsurer.  It turned out he had been measuring for about 12 months and knew Adam through University.  Looking back he had zero tailoring experience and knowledge.

Firstly it was down to chossing the cloth.  I asked for 'wool' having read this on english cut. I remember the mans repost word for word 'we specialize in man made fibres sir' he said with a big grin.  I chose my flashy lining and I then had my measuremnts and digital photos taken.  It was then down to the figuration details.

I asked for turnups on the trousers, no problem, I asked for button fly 'we can't do that sir'.  I asked for 'Daks tops'.  The blank look was a giveaway, he put buttons on once I had expained what I wanted, I also asked for inward pleats, 'we can't do that sir'.  On the jacket I asked for horn buttons, 'we can't do that sir'.  Working cuff buttons were no problem.  I also asked for the lining to go straight up, I am not a fan of this ozwald boeteng look where the lining is cutaway to accomodate the pocket, 'we can't do that sir'.  All this was filled out on the crib sheet.  I was told it would be ready in about 6 weeks and I was relieved of around £200, half the price of a suit with extra trousers, one pair of which I asked with a braces back, I thought this looked very good on Bownsbespoke.

Six weeks later my suit was ready, yes ready, NO BASTE FITTING.  I turned up to try on the suit at the boat they had hired in London's Docklands.  The jacket was a better fit that the usual hight street stuff I was used to.  The trousers were OK, although the legs were cut a little wider than I like.  I then noticed that the mirror I was standing in front of made me look very thin, and I'm 6'3 and thin.  Yes folks they had a fairground mirror that made you look thinner, I pointed this out to the attendant whilst he was changing one of the buttons, the smile and denial said it all.

I was relieved of another 200 quid ish and wore the suit to the aforementioned wedding, people liked it, several people commented on how good it looked.  I wore it to several more functions, then I had it dry cleaned.  It came back looking dreadful.

This experience has not put me off bespoke.  Indeed I have visited other tailors and bought 2 more suits since my King and Allen adventure.  Earlier this year I went to Sims and Macdonald and about 3 months ago I went to Graham Browne.

The difference in service, product and experience is imeasurable.  Yes, you will pay twice/three times the price, but the product, service and support is infinately better and in my opinion worth the extra investment.  I went to King and Allen, I did not enjoy the experience, and in hindsight I do not feel it was value for money.  Hence I voted with my feet!

King and Allen/Asuitthatfits/Sartoriani et al are middle men, they are not professional bespoke tailors or cutters, they will tick a few boxes on a sheet and send your details off to a fuzzy wuzzy in Hong Kong, Nepal, Germany or Thailand or wherever, this is not tailoring.  If you want that and you like the product, fine. 

The guys at Sims are ex Nortons, Russell and Dan at Graham Browne have been there for 20 yaers+.  They will cut your suit on site, you will get a baste fitting, they will make a point of asking you return with your bespoke suit a month or so later to see how it is wearing.  They will not ask you which side you 'dress'. They did not tell me 'we can't do that sir', You will get horn buttons, a braces back, if you want one, real wool, inward pleats.

I am still no bespoke expert.  However, before I buy a "bespoke" suit I will ask the following

I want to meet my cutter and I want him to measure me
Can I watch him cut my suit?

If the answer to this is 'fine', I am onto a winner.


RDW34UK

Take what you want from my "experience"

As far as Graham Browne goes they will charge you around £850 for a basic 2 piece.
They are based in Wells Court just off Cheapside, the workrooms are somewhere nearby.

It was a very enjoyable experience.  I got a 2 pece with extra trousers in a Duffin and Piece cloth for £850.
Ita full floating canvas, horn buttons, working cuff buttons.  The cut is OK, I've never really been an expert in cut, either it fits me or it doens't

Its no perfect, They do the ozwald boeteng lining/pocket thing which I don't like, there is a little too much sleevehead roll for my liking.  The lining doesn't go all the way down the arms which is very naughty and there are a few other minor details which I prefer but they haven't done.

Can I suggest you look a Simon Cromptons Permanent Style Blog, he had a suit and an overcoat done there recenlty, gives you full details with pics

And before anyone asks, I have/am no relation to either.  other than being an old fashioned paying punter

http://permanentstyle.blogspot.com/search/label/Graham%20Browne

Notice on the overcoat the lining goes straight up with the pocket within the lining, I like this, I prefer this
On the suit, the lining is cutaway to allow for the inside pocket, I don't like this, even though your tailor will tell you the latter is stronger.

http://www.bownsbespoke.com/henrypoolovercoat.html
http://www.asuitthatfits.com/shop/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=643&Itemid=154

The latter was described to me as being 'very ozwald boeteng'.  That is why i describe it that way

Adam

Apologies if my comments were hurtful, believe me it wasn't intended that way. I respect anyone who creates a succesful business as you have and, if anything, my post was an attempt to counter the blanket 'these are awful' views of the first few posts, so I'm sorry that I have offended. I wish to make it absolutely clear that I do not have anything against that sort of suits you do. As you rightly identify, you serve a different market to Savile row, and in fact I am sure I fit quite well in to your market. It's hard for me to comment on your suits without having experienced them, but I have recently had a suit made with ASuitThatFits, so I base some of my opinion on this. ASuitThatFits is another place that I expect few on this forum would have any time for, but it serves me quite well as I can get a decently fitting suit and have a pretty good level of choice over its design, for around 1/5th the price of a Savile row suit. There's nothing wrong with this, but I do not believe my suit from ASuitThatFits is bespoke, and I also do not believe you would be providing one.

As you say, the list from the SRA are guidelines, and indeed legally speaking it has been (sadly) established that the courts will not enforce the difference between Bespoke and Made-To-Measure, so it's hard (if not impossible) for me to conclusively demonstrate why I do not believe that a suit can be truly bespoke for the prices you offer, but in fact I think rdw34uk probably hits a few of the key points in his post, much better than I did. The inability to provide certain options, the lack of a basted fitting, and, ultimately, the fact that the people who take your measurements and fit you have so little involvement in the actual manufacturing process (and often seem to know little about tailoring beyond how to take basic measurements) all count against being really bespoke. For example, on your website, you say that customers will "be advised on the many options available to you." To me, this implies that only certain options are available? Your website also makes no mention of a basted fitting, merely being able to try on your suit in front of a tailor, which is hardly unusual. If you do provide a basted fitting then presumably you must then send the suit back to Hong Kong after the basted fitting? Or is it finished by a different tailor in the UK?

In the end, I suspect that we may have to agree to disagree - I have not experienced your service or one of your suits and so perhaps I was unfair to even weigh in to this discussion. However, as I say, your service is in fact the kind of thing I would consider trying if I didn't feel so uncomfortable with the 'bespoke' description. Furthermore having experienced ASuitThatFits, which I suspect does things very similarly to you, I like them for what they are, but I also know that they are a million miles from being bespoke. The only difference is that, as far as I can see, they never claim to be.

Perhaps to properly conclude our discussion, I shall have to buy a suit from you next year. If you truly provide the service you claim, then you represent outstanding value for money, and I look forward to being pleasantly surprised!

Cheers,

Jake

Last edited by Jake (2009-12-13 14:13:11)

Hi Bishop,

You asked me some questions which I took the time to answer, honestly and accurately.

However, you have still not responded, despite being encouraged to do so by other members of this forum ("For buffs sake, say something, you awful bishop pig". A little strong perhaps, but thanks to Manfoofanfan for your support!).

Instead you respond with the following comment to another member, which I find extremely unfair and not in keeping with the spirit of this debate, or this forum.

"Thanks for sharing your "experience" of King & Allen. I have heard similar stories that result in me taking the above reply with a large pinch of salt"

Which aspects of my response do you not believe? If I was ambiguous in any way please allow me to clarify.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best wishes,

Adam