The experience of rdw34uk was similar to mine although I got the inane and inflexible responses to questions over the phone. It reminded me of a Thomas Pink where pretty girls sell crap merchandise at inflated prices.

Well what do you know.  Antagonistic, aren’t we?

I have, in fact, read a lot of stuff on the net but I take it for what it is – writing by anonymous people who as a general rule don’t seem to have much of an idea about what is and what isn’t good tailoring.  The tailors may be reputable, but the people spouting absolute nonsense regarding them are far from it.  In fact, quite often I’ve read accounts that simply lead me to believe that the people writing them haven’t even tried the tailors they’re talking about.  I was sort of giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying that I’d be willing to trust your recommendations, but take it as you will.

As far as my actual question, it was more about the style of the houses mentioned by you, and what’s more to the point, tried by you.  As you’ve spent several hours studying them online, I’m sure you’ll have noticed that their websites (meaning the houses you mentioned that actually have websites) don’t exactly focus on a lot of pictures of their work, for one reason or another.  Sure, I can make dozens of international phone calls and go through the lot of them and more.  If past experience is to be trusted, they’ll all say they can do the style I’m after, no problem, while the reality might be something quite different.  I thought having been there, you might have been willing to share your views on their house style – if indeed they have such a thing.  Obviously you are not.  My apologies, foolish mistake. 

I have so far not called you out on the obvious embellishments you’ve included in your posts due to your blatant antipathy towards K&A and fanboy attitude towards Sims.  (Why, taking this into account, you went to other tailors, is quite frankly still beyond me.)  In fact, I’m quite sure that if someone showed you a “perfect” suit – any suit – and told you it was by K&A, you’d find fault in it, as there’s zero objectivity left in you, while you’d be equally swift in showing praise to any work attributed to Sims.  However, even joking that the (jaw-dropping) Sims suit you wore to their shop (obviously expecting to make a lasting impression…) would be remembered months afterwards by their employees is just ridiculous.  I also see their faults and shortcomings, but unlike you, I also notice what is good about them.  (Am I, incidentally, supposed to know who Dan and Darina are?) And now that we’re on the subject, suggesting that Apsley (“we’re equal in quality but otherwise even better than Savile Row, as we only need 1 fitting, 2 max!”) is any different than K&A or that a budget MTM shirtmaker is someone to contact regarding a bespoke suit is bordering on the ludicrous.  And finally, maybe you don’t understand what I mean with house style.  I refer to the cut of the suit, particularly the silhouette and the shoulders, as well as the drape or lack thereof; not the possibility of getting the be-all end-all inside pockets nor red-and-blue linings – you know, the things that seem to matter to you.

As far as my requirements go, they aren’t just whimsical things I throw around.  I have tried MTM, I have tried OTR, and I have altered both.  I have a very hard body shape and it will not work on me – not now, not in ten years, this I’m confident about.  As stated before, to me the bespoke process is about the pattern, which has to be made to fit my body.  (That, to me, is the essential definition of bespoke, and the only way a suit will fit me properly – not meeting the cutter.  That’s just a nice extra.)  I understand most London MTM and ‘entry-level bespoke’ is either from that one firm whose name eludes me right now, or from Asia.  Is that worth the price, I frankly don’t know.  What I do know is that it most probably will not fit me the way I expect.  I’ve thought it through and if I find a tailor I feel I can work with, I’m probably willing to travel to get measured and to have at least 1-2 fittings.  I know that’s not optimal, but 3-4 fittings is just excessive under my circumstances.  Even If that sacrifices a bit of the fit, I can live with that better than altered MTM or OTR    As stated, I wasn’t looking for suggestions in the low, low price bracket (K&A range) but rather something in the around 1000 quid range. 

Bottom line: I’m not getting it tomorrow.  Asking for suggestions on who (of the firms you listed) to contact regarding a specific house style is hardly out of this world, though you make it seem so.

Fit - Finishing - Fabric

In this order.

Last edited by Don Juan (2010-02-10 04:24:40)

Here are some King & Allen reviews here - http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews200312.html. I get the impression that there is a PR operation to try to counter negative comments online. The "satisfied customers" emerge to "balance" the negative reviews.

Clearly you have not read any of the previous posts

I believe IT IS possible to get a decent bespoke suit for £500
Not only that, it will be cut on site, I will meet my cutter and I will get as many fittings as I want.

I am also of the firm opinion that I will NOT get a decent bespoke suit from KING and ALLEN.  I am not even convinced I will get a decent suit!

I am not here to blow sunshine up your arse, this is business, I work hard for my money, I expect and demand that you do also.
If I feel you do not work hard for MY money, I will, as you suggest, vote with my feet, fuck off and I will tell the world and his wife that I think your product and service is crap and I will produce evidence to substantiate this.  I accepted your challenge that if i spent £499 I would get what I wanted.  I gave you the benefit of the doubt, I was also willing to spend £999.  YOU FAILED

I have spoken to your staff in the last 4 weeks, they have seen what I expect from them for a like for like product.  Why aren't you speaking to them, why aren't they speaking to you.  If you were genuinely interested in improving your product and service to customers, like others have pointed out, you would be seeking people like me out, I haven;'t heard from You, Dan or Darina yet!  You would be looking at what the professional tailors are are doing.  In my opinion you can talk the talk but you cannot walk the walk.

I think I have shown that your product is

A) Overpriced : Like for like you are more expensive than both Sims and GB.  Therefore I must ask you about the material you are using for a £500 product.  Whose wool is it?

B) Infelexible : You will not or can't do all the things I asked for, Pockets as I like them, Braces back, Jetted pockets, Lining as I require it, no buttonaire.

C)Poorly produced and supported : Both sims and GB are experienced bespoke tailors with many years experience at recognised establishments, that can be verified by anybody here. Both products are made in the UK, thus ensuring appropriate product quality, performance and ongoing support.  You are an enconomics graduate from Birmingham Uni, you do not employ people in the UK with a reputable tailoring background.  They may be enthusiastic, clever, willing to learn and very nice, well done to them, but so is my pet dog Fido.  You may make your product entirely by hand, the question is, is the bloke/bird making it any good.  We only have the opinion of an economics graduate to go on

I know from experience, because I have done it, that if you want to learn about bespoke tailoring get off your arse and do the following

A) Have trawl round the internet : Askandy, styleforum, filmnoir, bespokeme, permanentstyle, mensflair, gentlemanscorner, londonlounge, bownsbespoke, englishcut.  All are useful
B) Go an talk to some professional bespoke  tailors : Anderson and Sheppard, Henry Poole, Dege and Skinner, Meyer and Mortimer, Nortons, Maurice Sedwell, Welsh and Jefferies, Geives and Hawkes, Stowers, Chittleborogh and Morgan, Sims, Grahame Browne, Connock and Lockie, Couch and Hoskin, Ninos, the Georges, Huntsman, Richard Andreson, Redwood and Feller, Steven Hitchcock, AJ Hewitt, LG wilkinson, Byrne and Burge, Apsley.

And yes I did talk to all these people.  Why? Because I wasn't going to get shafted by Bodgeit and Scarper like i did the fisrt time wtih K&A

They will all welcome you and explain what they do, why they do it, when they do it.  You don't have to tell them you can't afford their product, do what i did, lie through your teeth.  Be confident, firm and have an idea of what you expect and demand, treat it as an investment.  I told them I expect to buy 1 suit only, the process will last 12 months because i want to see how it behaves after it has been worn for 6 months, been altered, sponged and pressed and I expect, with proper care and attention, for it to last 20 years  Some also will do MTM or MTO that will be far superior to anything Mr King can provide.

Also in my opinion I have not wasted the time of either you or the readers of this thread.  I refer to the following.

This thread was established by a forum member enquiring about Your product and service
Several members commented that it was NOT ACCEPTABLE in THEIR OPINION.
I provided an opinion from first hand experience
YOU highjacked this thread, to find out if you could get a decent bespoke suit for between £499 & £999 (I will NOT even begin to discuss that you are NOT bespoke)
I accepted your challenge and verifyably established that you can get a decent bespoke suit within these parameters.  YOU are upset that it just wasn't from you!

If anyone other than Adam King feels I have wasted their time, they have not learnt anything or that I have not demonstrated that my opinions cannot be verified and/or supported, speak up, I'm a big boy I can take it!  Even your one supporter on this thread (Don Juan), despite me being an antagonistic git, is not happy with you.

I have commented on your business and product because, having experienced it, you CANNOT/WILL NOT/DO NOT/DON'T KNOW if you can offer what I want when you claim too and I want to stop other pissing their money down the drain  More importantly you are not even prepared to look into offering me what I want when I show you.  Can I suggest you stop offering to buy people a pint and start offering them a DECENT BESPOKE SUIT

This is becoming rather tedious now, you seem to be arguing for the sake of it. Thats lawyers for you!

Why is the service and product crap?
When I was was there I got a constant stream of 'We can't do that sir', We don't do that sir, We won't do that sir, We don't know if we can do that sir.  Sorry I thought I was dealing with an 'expert' (By the way 'expert' is a relative term).  I am not interested in what they don't do, do you think at any of the other UK based tailors who I spoke to couldn't meet any of my requirements.  NO.  They did not see any of my requirements as unreasonable or unachieveable
Not only that but K&A aren't even prepared to go and find out how to do what I have requested, very unprofessional.  Let me tell you how this business thing works.  I approach a professional supplier and offer them MY hard earned money for a service and product that meets MY reasonable requirements.  If they cannot, will not, do not or does not know if he can do what I demand then the choice is simple

1. Go and learn how to do it.  Do it well and you have a happy customer. I am Liable to return
2. Do what you want and I will tell the rest of the world that you are a crap tailor because I didn't get what I asked for
3. Give the customer some limp arsed excuse as to why you can't do it.  In most cases I don't care, you are still a crap tailor, especially if others can do what I ask for a similar price. I will tell the world

Customers who go to K&A are promised a suit to 'meet THEIR individual requirements'.  This is clearly not the case. 

Price: I know what cloths K&A offer, they are 10% more expensive than my UK tailor on a like for like basis

I don't understand why you would go to Huntsman and ask for an A&S suit.  Can you elaborate?  ?hat seems to me like going to Rolls Royce and asking for a Ferrari.  I would go to them both and ask about the differences, this is a much more pertinent question.  I also still do not see why any of my requirements are unreasonable for any professional tailor.  Adam King states on his website that I can have a suit tailored to meet my individual means.  Clearly not the case.

You are right about one thing being produced in the UK is not a guarentee of good work.  However, I think I have a better chance of achieveing the required results with my cutter with 30 years experience and a savile row background who has run his own business for 15 years who can do all I ask with his work room 30 minutes up the road rather than letting an economics graduate with no established professional tailoring history contract the building of my suit out to a man who cannot meet all my requirements 5000 miles and 9 time zones away.  Anyone disagree?

I am still not a bespoke tailoring expert.  Expert is a relative term, compared to my tailor I am not an expert and i do not know more than he does.  I know this because i have met him.  I do though feel that by talking to him and his competitors about his and their service and product I will get both a better service and product.  You should try it, oh, thats right, you can't, your tailor is in Hong Kong!  You have to talk to a K&A 'consultant' who can't, won't, doesn't and other assorted limp arsed excuses.

They are not Bespoke because I do not meet anyone who is directly involved in the making of my garment.  They cannot meet all of my reasonable requests

If you want to give them £700 for a suit with plastic buttons, ozwald boeteng pockets, no inward pleats, no little label on the inside of the inside pocket, no braces back, its your money.  If I were you I'd wait until August and go and do the sale at GB.  they will even give you £50 change.  By the way Apsley has an offer on at the moment, a bespoke suit for £385, maybe worth investigating

Why would i want to offer any insight to the K&A product today?  Personally I don't think they did a crappy job well, I'm not certainly going to give them a good job.  I learn't from my K&A experience, as a result I now firmly belive I have the best tailor in london making my suits.  Companies who I favour with my business have earnt my business on MERIT and they moment they do not MERIT my business I will bugger off to their competitor, show them the crap work I have had to accept and tell the world about it.

Since your last post I have actually spoken to Adam King.  It took them 3 weeks to come back to me.  Fortunately Adam does not wish to sue me for Libel.  He did however confirm he could not do all I ask.  I would also like to take this opportunity to apologise for the cheap, yet humourous, jibes on the King and Allen name.  I do however stand by all my remarks relating to the business and product.

Don Juan,  I also think you will find, again, depsite my antagonistic manner I have been a lot more benefit to King and Allen than you.  This is not your court room where people argue over wordings and symantics infront of a man in a silly wig.  This is real life and I think I have given compelling and justified reasons to current and potential K&A customers, even you, that there are better alternatives out there.  I am what you would call an informed consumer who is a fully paid up member of the awkward squad.  I have given K&A a fisrt hand insight what happens when they piss their customers off.  Most will just say these things behind his back and vote with their feet.  Adam King seems to look upon this as an opportunity to improve his business, the right attitude in my opinion.  I will also go back in 12 months time and give hime the chance to EARN my business.  However he and his staff will have to prove they can surpass my current tailor.  What do you think?

Last edited by Don Juan (2010-02-24 12:40:48)

What an enjoyable little read that was.