Film Noir Buff Style Forum / Ivy/Jazz... Jazz/Ivy

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 03:27:49

A bit of an old chestnut, but posted here for the greater good.
Big John Patton's shirt was a classic candy striped OCBD, btw.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Way-I-Feel-John-Patton/dp/B00009PN8W/sr=1-4/qid=1158828919/ref=sr_1_4/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

From Graham Marsh's essay remembering London style in the early '60s "No Room for Squares" in "Blue Note The Album Cover Art", 1991, Chronicle Books.

"... While Modern Jazz was required listening, the desired look for any self-respecting hipster was American Ivy League.

Time not going to clubs, listening to records or just hanging out was reserved for tracking down these essential imported threads. Black and white photographs on the backs of record sleeves, copies of Esquire and Down Beat magazines helped to bring the details into focus.

It was an obsession; a friend of mine was not a happy person until he owned a striped button down identical to the shirt Big John Patton wore on the sleeve of The Way I Feel. Eventually the obsession turned into some kind of eternal quest to score the correct items of clothing on the menu - narrow lapels to go, hold the double breasted!

Let me tell you what we looked like. You can probably get an argument about it, but the generally accepted shirt was either plain blue or white Oxford cloth button-down, a close second came the tab collar. The necktie was knitted, narrow, very black and made by Rooster. A leather or webbing belt held up the trousers of a three-button, natural-shouldered, half lined raised seam suit, with the inevitable six-inch hooked vent. The purist suit was in tan needlecord, or olive or dark blue cotton. At the bottom of the narrow, plain front trousers, beneath the one-and-a-half-inch cuffs, was a pair of long wing-tip brogues or beef-roll loafers with the lowest heels you've ever seen..."

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-21 03:32:26)

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 03:43:03

Another Oldie -

From Graham Marsh's essay Cool Struttin' in The Cover Art of Blue Note Records Volume 2, 1997, Collins & Brown.

"... One of the rare and enduring items of standard-issue cool.

Once an indispensable part of the 'preppie' look, Bass Weejuns with their clean, smooth lines soon bacame the unapproachably correct shoe of New York's hipster saints during those fabled pre-psychedelic 60's. They complimented perfectly the sleek, sharp and minimal look that the modernists had nailed down so completely. If Miles Davis had the green shirt and Jimmy Smith the sweaters, the rest of the congregation for sure had the Weejuns...

... These loafers were so comfortable and hip you could put them on with your hands in your pockets, a sometimes overlooked fact, but worthy of special mention in dispatches...

... As George Frazier, the late, great tastemaster and doyen of Boston journalists, said: 'Wanna know if a guy's well dressed? Look down.' "

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-21 10:35:15)

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 03:59:25

From Graham Marsh's essay Hat Check in "New York Hot", 1993, Chronicle Books.

"... On television the narrow-brimmed hat that Lee Narvin sported in 'M Squad', a cop opera that ran from 1957 to 1960, left an indelible impression on the black-suited pilgrims of cool. Hats mattered.

And when the Chairman of the Clan, Frank Sinatra, took his sugar to tea at the White House, the ever-present trademark chapeau was firmly in place. It seemed that the only hatless cat around was President Jack Kennedy.

The legend of the hipster as a sharp dresser was given extra grease when in 1961 GQ, the American fashion magazine, voted Miles Davis Best Dressed Man - with or without a hat. The connection between music and fashion was finally sanctified."

(Edit: Miles was in fact voted "Fashion Personality of the Month" in April 1961 by GQ)

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-21 10:09:23)

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 10:07:42

All the old ones are coming out today, eh?

From So What, The Life of Miles Davis. John Szwed. 2003. Arrow Books.

"... In the mid-fifties Miles took to the Ivy League look in fashion, having his clothes made at the epicenter of preppy fashion, the Andover Shop in Cambridge's Harvard Square, where tailor Charlie Davidson dressed him in jackets of English Tweed or Madras with narrow lapels and natural shoulder, woolen or chino trousers, broadcloth shirts with button-down collars, thin knit or rep ties, and Bass Weejuns loafers. It was a look that redefined cool and shook those who thought they were in the know..."

Just so you get a picture of the guy at this point he was wearing all of the above and at the same time walking round calling people 'motherf***er'.

Miles was no "Trad"!

D.

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 10:14:45

Herbie Hits the streets -
Slimmed down Ivy cool.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inventions-Dimensions-Herbie-Hancock/dp/B0009WFUIG/sr=1-1/qid=1158855045/ref=sr_1_1/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

(Wish these pics were better, but I've only just learned to do this much...)

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 10:26:15

Never mind the socks - Check the Mac & haircut option!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/6-Pieces-Silver-20Bit-Horace/dp/B0000252F2/sr=1-3/qid=1158855726/ref=sr_1_3/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

You could go blind trying to look at some of these...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stylings-Silver-Horace/dp/B00005A4AY/sr=1-6/qid=1158855889/ref=sr_1_6/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

Enough?

Enough!

M.

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 10:43:55

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kind-Blue-Sacd-CD-Hybrid/dp/B0000ES93P/sr=1-17/qid=1158856950/ref=sr_1_17/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

Usual story.
I never know when to stop...

M.

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-21 10:44:54)

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 11:52:50

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Portrait-Jazz-Bill-Evans-Trio/dp/B000000Y59/sr=1-2/qid=1158861069/ref=sr_1_2/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

Bill!!!

Edit: And the thing is Bill was completely cool. Never judge a book...

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-21 11:54:35)

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 12:09:47

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mose-Allison-Sings/dp/B000FZESZS/sr=1-3/qid=1158862111/ref=sr_1_3/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

Mose!!!!

Horace · 2006-09-21 12:36:43

Last edited by Horace (2006-09-21 12:37:24)

Horace · 2006-09-21 12:39:06

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 13:10:27

Miles Away · 2006-09-21 13:14:11

'No Room for Squares' goes on to talk of 'Austins' in London as the place to buy.
So Mr. Marsh isn't talking of Brooks/Press/Andover/Stuart, but of Austin's makers in the early 60's. They would have been names, but 'B' list names. No idea who, but I'd love to find out. Still quality though, by all accounts.

Edit: 'Austins' imported from the US into London, like 'Davids' of Charing Cross Road did in 1949, and like 'J. Simons' does today.

Edit: The guy who will know about the vents is Chris H. who was there at the time. You around, Sir?

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-21 13:20:58)

Chris_H · 2006-09-22 00:23:43

Hello Miles and Horace,

I've measured the hook vents on my old 60's sacks, they're all around 8-8.5". The lapels are 2.75" to 3" wide, also the length of those jackets is generally 1" to 1.5" shorter than the corresponding regular length these days.
All these jackets are Harris tweed, but not well known TNSIL makes. Just mainstream Ivy style jackets from back in the day.

Incidently Miles, Slim Jenkins and I are off to see Mose Allison next Thursday at the Pizza Express.

Chris

Miles Away · 2006-09-22 01:08:35

Thanks for that Chris, always good to hear from one who knows.

My stuff measures up at the 10" mark for vents and 3.5" for lapels ('85 onwards). That seems to be standard issue Ivy now. I'll ask around and try to pin down when those measurements became standard.

I know that Austins sold lots of familiar names - Arrow, Sero, Bass etc, but did they have 'own label' items made for them too? It's asking a lot to remember by now I know.

I envy you seeing Mose again. I last saw him at the Pizza Express too - Always a fantastic evening drawing a really hip crowd. I hope he does "Swinging Machine" - a song that always makes me smile!

All the Best -

Daniele · 2006-09-22 03:44:21

Very interesting thread. Excellent job Miles, Mr. Marsh's article about hats was new to me. Incidentally, I was planning to have a porkpie hat made here in Milan, prices aren't demanding and it's impossible to find a proper one (small brim, etc..) OTR.
I usually look like a t**t with a hat on, at worse I'll keep it in the wardrobe as an example of a disappearing craftmanship.

As for Mose Allison's gig, I could be in London next thursday. In case, can I join the Modernist crew?:-)

Ciao everybody,

D.

Last edited by Daniele (2006-09-22 03:45:25)

Miles Away · 2006-09-22 06:17:26

Miles Away · 2006-09-23 08:24:06

Dexter Gordon in Mac mode. Lookin' good Dex -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doin-Alright-Dexter-Gordon/dp/B000005HC7/sr=8-1/qid=1159021141/ref=sr_1_1/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

At it again:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dexter-Calling-Gordon/dp/B0000C4GKG/sr=1-4/qid=1159021273/ref=sr_1_4/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

Tall, Dark & Handsome:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Our-Man-Paris-Dexter-Gordon/dp/B0000AC8N4/sr=1-2/qid=1159021327/ref=sr_1_2/202-8104650-1924635?ie=UTF8&s=music

(I'm like a child with a new toy, aren't I?)

Miles.

Miles Away · 2006-09-23 08:54:29

Mr. Horace, Sir -

Do you remember 'Eastland' loafers from Freeport, Maine? Green & white box, cost about £49 in London way back when... Had a compass as their company logo?
I'm thinking of your comment on Dexters & LLBean here.
'Composition' soles, but a lovely loafer from J.Simons in (when?) 86-ish (?). Beefroll & snub nosed with a deep toe and lovely pie-crust gathered stitching that shouted IVY.
A treat for the feet.
Sebago-esq but with a bit more 'chunk' to them.
The day will come when I can post photos - I've got the Black & the Cordo Beefroll in my collection...
Lovely stuff.

But then again, Maine was full of shoemakers back in the day wasn't it?

... And Shirtmakers...

Ah well!

Miles.

I'm thinking of these in Cordo to wear in the rain.
Look OK.
Don't cost.
Thoughts?

http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?page=rockport-beckington-loafers&categoryId=47847&storeId=1&catalogId=1&langId=-1&parentCategory=3541&cat4=1011&shop_method=pp&feat=3541-tn

Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-23 15:21:49)

Horace · 2006-09-26 01:27:55

Tony Ventresca · 2006-11-12 15:28:16

Miles, in my readings and research on Ivy (and related styles), I've come across much mention of poly-cotton button down shirts and Sta-Press trousers. Was the use of blended cloths common among Ivy fans, as it was for say original Skinheads and others? Was it just a style-on-a-budget alternative to the cost of 100% natural fibres?

Terry Lean · 2006-11-13 01:09:46

Daniele · 2006-11-13 05:55:25

...And Levi's Sta-prest look 'leaner and cleaner' than over-rumpled khakis...sssssst............;-)

Terry Lean · 2006-11-13 08:41:40

And an important point that Daniele has made me remember is that what we now call 'easy care' fabrics (or whatever) were new & exciting back then. The stigma against them in favour of natural fabrics kicked in later.

The thing to remember with Ivy in Europe was that it was a hot, new, imported style from the New World back in the day. It was always new & cool & forward looking. The latest (man-made) fabrics would fit in with that very well.

I'm talking about '65-'70 here.

Don't tell the 'Trads' but at that time in the U.S. the style was still youthful for them too!

Heresy!

In the popular imagination it was still a style associated with JKF and getting laid.

Dem days is gone... Unless there is a will to rediscover the reality of the Ivy style's past... More Heresy!!

T.L.

Film Noir Buff · 2006-11-13 08:46:00

If I had to make a cultural guess, I would say that the European kids were admiring the American youth's freedom, identity and sense of having fun. This may have been a new phenomenon worldwide; that younger people were their own community, rather than adults in training. I’d imagine the Americans that Europe saw up close were the Ivy set.

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Ivy/Jazz... Jazz/Ivy

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