Sorry Cardi - I am infuriating aren't I?   

We have a 'Trad' forum, but no idea of what 'Trad' actually is.  You inform it is not 'Traditional' American dress and I agree.

But I thought that the original intention was that it should be though.

That online 'Trad' has had an 'evolution' is undoubted. It has moved miles away ('Miles Away'?) from where it started.

'Big Tent' 'Trad' is interesting. It was one of those 'everybody can join the party' moments. And everybody did. This all speeded up the 'evolution' as now 'Trad' can be anything & anybody can be one.

'Trip' is also interesting - Not 'Trad' you inform, but he's clearly drawn to the 'Trad' label. What does it all mean to him I wonder...

A 'Trad' reformation?  Back to basics I'd say - Traditional American style - That unique American thing. 'Ivy League Style' is the correct sylistic term for this that you'll find in books. Flusser's camp usage of the Japanese term 'Trad' hold little sway with me. For, before Flusser, older, wiser heads were not talking about the American style in his camp way. They talked about it seriously.

And, on the subject of camp, let's not mention 'Preppy' - Which is where Andyland 'Trad' absolutely comes from as the GoPreppy! site was where Harris came from & he was a troll there & little regarded except by that wonderful old boozer Tom22. Tom was in the 'Sally Fowler Rat Pack' on GoPreppy! Harris was not. And the fact that GoPreppy! had a 'Sally Fowler Rat Pack' led by a poster called 'Sally Fowler' (nice gal though) says a lot about all of this. Back then Harris used to post 'How dare these creepy minorities wear our clothes...' 

Before 'Preppy' there was a world of Traditional American style which I'd like to see celebrated & better recorded.  Or you can just ask if Summer is the Tradliest month instead. The forum is for you do do with what you will... and you all seem to be making a right dog's dinner of it...


So why not go back to Traditional American style? And if not, then what's the point of 'Trad' - Apart from being a nebulous marketing term to be exploited?

Best -

There are no "sainted rules" of trad, but these are some of the features I think R_S and I can agree were part of the original look (please add others if I missed them)

1. Natural Shoulder Jackets (popular makers are: Brooks, Press, Southwick, Norman Hilton, H. Freeman, etc.)
2. Sack front on jackets (bonus points if jackets and suits have lapped seams, swelled edges, 2B on cuffs, hook vent
3. Flat front pants
4. 1 5/8" or 1 3/4 cuffs on pants
5. Shetland sweaters (crewneck and saddle-shouldered) favored over cashmere/lambswool, etc.
6. Standard everyday shirts are oxford cloth button downs (Brooks, Press, Sero, Hathaway, etc), but forward point and french cuffs for "nicer" occasions (rarely see spread collars)
7. Shoes are either American or English (preferences are American penny and tassel loafers, English brouges, etc).  Casual shoes are usually some kind of mocs (camp, blucher, etc)
8. Outerwear should always be English (Invertere, Grenfell, Aquascutum, Burberry, Rodex)
9. Casual outerwear should be English or American (Baracuta, Barbour, Gloverall, MacGregor, LL Bean)
10. Ties should be rep stripe, emblematic, small geometric, or similar subdued pattern - bonus points for wool challis, etc. (bow ties fairly common in the States)
11. Socks should be argyles or solids - otc preferred.
12. Everyday "office" pants are worsted or flannel (bonus points if they're tapered)
13.  Everyday "casual" pants are chinos
14. Summer wear includes: madras shirts, linen pants, polos, white or dirty bucks, boat shoes, reds (often see loafers worn sockless)

That's it off the top of my head.  Maybe R_S can correct my list or add others.

Thanks, Sammy, you're making me blush.  I certainly might be giving them too much credit, but I think they're generally just a bunch of decent guys talking about clothes. 

All this naval gazing has tired me out so I'm off the thread for a while.

Last edited by Cardinals5 (2011-06-10 10:49:23)

Quite the debate, eh?

Re: Trip, yes I know all that, but I still wonder why he's on the 'Trad' forum not wearing 'Trad'. Although now you tell me that any old thing is 'Trad' I supose it makes sense.

The first dogmatic definition of 'Trad' by Harris is on the original American Trad thread - It's something like post 169 - I'll need to check. All its rules were then later reversed by Harris just like he changed religion & where he came from later.

So is there such a thing as Andyland 'Trad'?  If a thing which is nothing can exist then yes there is. Because if 'Trad' can be anything then 'Trad' is nothing. It has no substance or core.

Why not call it the mishmash flipflop forum?

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?34490-American-Trad/page7

Post 169 -




As a Yankee (and NYC suburbanite) who nonetheless appreciates what has been said about the South's ongoing appreciation of sartorial etiquette, I do feel compelled to make an observation.

That observation is that while the South may be traditional and "coat-and-tied" all the way (my travels throughout the South confirm this), I'm not sure there's an abiding appreciation for what I understand as the authentically Trad look. In fact--and please don't use this as an occasion for stone-throwing--I'm fairly confident that most well-dressed Southerners I know have not a clue as to the difference between (mere) "traditional dress" and the unique look that is Trad.

Yes, Southerners may "dress up" more frequently, but I've seen many a "well dressed Southerner" wearing darted sportcoats, pleated trousers, and wide ties. While the fabric may have been sufficiently appropriate (tweed, seersucker, moleskin), the cut was not at all Trad. Someone mentioned that Aldens could be seen on the feet of W&L students. I don't doubt that, but in my experience there are only a couple of shoes in the whole Alden inventory that fit nicely under the category of American Trad...and Brooks has carried those two styles longer than anyone. Alden extended the scope of their inventory, no doubt in response to those who refused to wear nothing more than tassels and high-vamped penny's in color 8 shell cordovan.

I'm sure I'll received some criticism for this observation, but I think it should be noted that Trad, at least as I understand it, is quite narrow in scope--to the point of frustrating those unschooled in the look. Maybe this will serve to illustrate my point: A shetland sweater in heather pink is Trad; a cashmere sweater in the same shade of pink is not, nor is a shetland is brown or charcoal. A wide-waled cord in kelly, pink, or a maize yellow is Trad, but not if it's pleated. And a plain front cord in brown is, well, "just another cord." If/when one is forced to wear a staid ensemble consisting of charcoal, tan, navy, or brown, then the way of Trad is to spruce it up with vibrant grosgrain pastels (no dark leather, thanks very much). At least that's the way I've learned, but then I'm a hopelessly committed student to the New England/Mid-Atlantic Trad I learned long ago.

Trad is about VERY traditionally cut/styled clothing in VERY traditional fabrics...yet in bold, vibrant colors. If/when Trad is reduced to (mere) "traditional dress," anything can be said to fit under the category, including a lot of truly boring stuff.

For the record, I've seen the authentically Trad look (at its best) only on the Upper East Side, suburban NYC, and New England vacation spots. In fact, I'm tempted to think of the look as unique to the Mid-Atlantic and New England. Southerners may "dress up," but pleated Duckheads, a darted Corbin blazer, and a striped bowtie in a matte color do not qualify as Trad.

A longtime New York family (the Prenners) brought New England Trad to the South, for which many Southerners are thankful.

Respectfully,
Harris

Russell - do you have the classic 'arry post in which he claimed he and his (presumably sainted) brothers wore unlined shell cordovan Alden loafers during their childhood? Naught but unlined shell ever touched his feet.