I appreciate that this topic will greatly polarise opinions.
My journey to Ivy has been greatly influenced by him.He has consistently sold things I like that fall close to the classic Ivy look.
So the case for the defence:
I have purchased brushed Shetland sweaters, flap pocket ocbd’s, loafers, unstructured and undarted jackets, natural shoulders suits,madras and seersucker from Polo.All have been good quality and not a logo in sight.
They work with some great suppliers in the UK, Italy and the States.
The flagship stores, rather than concessions, sell a wider range of merchandise that is well presented.
In the background you’ll find the great American songbook and mainstream jazz playing. They’re genuinely nice places to shop.
Finally, against the onset of somewhat bizarre fashion trends Ralph has always offered some classics.
Now in order to present a balanced argument the prosecution will rise.
Price in the Uk is too much.They simply change $ to £ so it’s typically 30% more. The brand covers too many bases.For every classic item they produce some really awful stuff.
Sometimes it’s not the clothes it’s the people who wear them. I hate the logo as it appeals to the rugger-bugger types.
I know global outsourcing means some Polo items are from the third world but if it creates employment and workers are paid fairly I don’t mind. The big margins are needed to keep the brand marketing going.
The case now rests with the Talk Ivy jury
Maybe the workers are paid fairly, but I very much doubt it. Some horrific shit goes on in those places (as documented a few years back in No Logo). It's possible Ralph is a bit different though.
I've never seen anything of his I've liked but if I did I wouldn't let the brand stop me.
No doubt that Ralph Lauren has done more for the Ivy look than any other brand. They produce some very nice shirts if you can live with the pony logo or did, because the ones I’ve seen on sale lately have the shrunken collars that seem to be everywhere now. The quality is variable from not that good to bloody awful. I’ve bought items of theirs in the past that just haven’t lasted for five minutes, for example a pair of cords that were great except that they went bald at the knees after I had worn them half a dozen times.
Ralph Lauren brought me back to wearing Ivy in 1992/3. I was doing store designs in Canada and my local shopping mall in Ontario had a RL shop. When I first walked in I was blown away with the layout and the products. I had gone down the route of wearing designer clothes but the RL shop brought me back to my senses. The shop reminded me of J Simons. l became a regular customer. Never been a big fan of the logo but I can live with it. I do have quite a few RL products without any logos however.
Woof,
See this is the interesting point. Inconsistent quality. I have a pair of made in Italy Polo cords from House of Fraser purchased 12 years ago. I have had them let in and out overs the years and they’re worn each winter.They still look like new.
I have a number of non logo’d shirts that are good too.
Your experience is typical. As a global brand they have loads of different suppliers and the quality is so variable.
I believe that in the late sixties there were Ivy brands that featured a smaller collar too.
He's a genius, a design genius. Also a great philanthropist, donating a lot of money to cancer research.
I don't like the pony but will always look for 'Made In The USA' items. Hard-wearing polo shirts are a favourite, as they were with my father.
I bought my first RL items late 80's. Two polo shirts in black & navy purchased from Pulse in Guildford. Ian of Harrington also owned this shop it was a bit more street fashion and the shop had 3 floors, the top floor was a RL showroom. I still have those polo shirts faded to death but still wearable.
Most of the RL I own nowadays is unbranded, a made in Scotland Shetland some BD's a pair of Cramerton cloth chinos. I also have a few branded BD's which wash up and iron like new. My opinion is there's some good some bad, just make wise choices.
Yeah I’ll stand up for RL.
Like everyone on here, I’d rather they did away with the logo, which at some point became the internationally recognised symbol of ‘I am a tosser’, the bigger the pony………. And I’ll be happy if I never see another photo of him in horrendously fitting jeans, cowboy boots and a dinner jacket.
But, most importantly, the shirts and polos fit me. They are one of only a few brands of polos I’ve ever had that don’t shrink up to my waist after the first wash. The shirts stay tucked in, often have the important (to me) three finger collar, and I don’t mind chucking one on when I don’t know where the day will take me. I’m unlikely to risk a US Brooks if there’s a chance I’ll end up hedge cutting.
I don’t buy any clothes on line. Ever, but I am a shopper, on a fairly limited budget. So my choices are from the high street. RL is the most readily available brand that ticks (one or two) Ivy boxes, as opposed to Next, Matalan etc.
Obviously nobody’s claiming all, or even most of it is acceptable to us here. Sizing can be off. They’ve got a strange habit of producing a half decent product and then sticking teddy bears or CND signs all over it. And they do stray into slim fit, or the dreaded ‘with stretch’ But that’s to be expected from a high profile fashion label.
For my purposes, like Brooks, Levi’s, Press, Gant, Orvis, Land End, Uniqlo etc, some of it CAN be ok. Not earth shattering. Certainly not ‘boom years’, or maybe JS, but ok.
Anything that just exists, but can have a pony logo stamped on it; boxers, socks, pumps, fragrance, is best avoided.
Actually, Red Extreme is pretty good.
I'd more or less written it off until a visit to Russell Street and seeing Jeff wearing one: pony and all. A shirt for work, probably pale blue or green. I didn't bite but took a couple of polo shirts brought back from the USA as a gift. Three people managed to get some wear out of them: my father, me, a brother-in-law. But the brand remains overdone, overblown, overextended: there's plenty of dross. And yet... and yet... Better RL than Thom Browne (to name but one), and there was a rather nice-looking overcoat on sale at Chiltern Street recently as one of their one-off items.
Compare with Burberrys' perhaps. I won't consider anything with that wretched check. I wouldn't accept it as a gift. But take that away and it's still something I'll consider. Given the right set of circumstances.
Bought a couple of inexpensive Made In USA polo shirts recently, one in navy (pony), one natural (pocket, no logo). Also a pretty heavy shirt which doesn't say where its made. Collar is nothing special and the placket is a little on the stiff side yet it's okay: a second-best shirt for late spring and summer.
TRS speaks favourably of them elsewhere. His opinions are not to be disregarded.
Unpleasing details: that pony the size of a grown man's fist.
I can't handle the logo but that's just me. Had a pair of RRL 5 pocket cords that looked pretty good but were too low waisted. With a long enough sweater they'd look ok, legs had a good cut to them but ultimately they were sold.
I bought an American made button-down last thing before going to bed. £9.99. Yes, the logo is there but the USA-made swung it at that price. I went through literally hundreds of shirts in the early autumn and found not a single USA-made example. I wouldn't have been surprised to have found one or two made in Zimbabwe or Albania.
I would put them on the same level as, say, a B.D. Baggie: a kind of workhorse shirt.
Makers being in such short supply makes them highly appealing but I'm looking after the ones I have left. I'm about fifty per cent down on around ten years ago.
You can't go far, even in my neck of the woods, without seeing the pony at least once. The clothing has no 'Ivy' status. Chaps just wear them: with anything and everything.
I'd say modern Gant is also a workhorse. Like Ralph Lauren, I have mixed feelings about it. The 'Nordic Twill' I bought in a charity shop around four years ago was made in India (like, obviously, a great deal of Madras - and rightly so) and has had a very great deal of wear, washing and softening. A navy poplin, bought only a few weeks ago, I have not yet taken to. I don't think I'd go out of my way to find them. A notch or two above, say, Haggar, though, as a modern, second, even third, best shirt.
Re Gant: you can find some of their USA-made poly/cotton shirts on Ebay. Who in Europe would bother? (I'm only referring to some of the lower priced offerings). The same kind of money - cost of shirt, plus shipping (often absurdly high), plus customs - will probably get you an all-cotton Brooks.
What RL did (positively) stylistically at the time he did it was to provide a midway point or blending between American ivy and continental (Italian off the rack) clothing in terms of fit and finish, not entirely unlike the Paul Stuart of the same period (late 20th c.). He also democratized the style even beyond its widespread 50s/60s mass wave of popularity, so that literally every kid in America can walk into a mall and with $50-80 buy the same shirt as the future kings of England.
All of this was rather like the meat in a lobster, but almost all the mass lux companies went to hell in much the same way.
^ Bloody good points, Bulldog. He was able to sell, if not a unified look then random items of clothing, to men who would not recognise the term 'Ivy League' if you beat their brains in. My late father was one of them.
Without starting another thread, I know the phenomenon has been assessed in book form but I sincerely believe a book from a UK point of view is vital. This is not intended to dismiss the efforts and interests of France, Germany, Italy, Finland, The Netherlands, Japan and elsewhere - not at all - but the focus should be slightly away from the US and on, well, London really. Ralph Lauren would be granted the recognition he merits - that goes without saying - but certain shops in and around London should be at the forefront - perhaps beginning with Gee.
I've become increasingly fascinated by the way Ralph Lauren's name keeps cropping up: only last evening, for instance, during the thread on work wear. To what extent, it was asked, might John Simons during his tenure at Russell Street have been influenced by various aspects of what Ralph Lauren was doing? And I've just bought a second shirt in a couple of days: because they look right: one Black Watch tartan, one green and white candy stripe. Still looking for that pistachio I was wearing around sixteen or so years ago up at school. But I tend to make certain the logo is hidden. That I find unpalatable on the whole.
But Alvey's thread was timely. There's also at least one other, which originated with our Gibson around a dozen years ago.
Still a pity, though, that the shirts have appeared in such massive quantities in every so-called 'vintage' shop.
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being a little too precious about the pony, I can only say in my defence that it's a reaction to men seen out and about who ruin the look by teaming Ralph Lauren with their no-mark strides and clown shoes/horrible trainers/flip-flops etc. Team a button-down with some decent plain-fronted chinos or cords and penny loafers, it'll work. The footwear, as we know, is key.
Interesting. I've bought two Ralph Lauren shirts this week that are bang on the money. A Gant, on the other hand, will go into a drawer and be worn as a kind of 'beater' (as JFM used to express it) item, i.e. very much second best.
There are still some hopeful types on Ebay with £40 starting bids on RL shirts. There are also, however, definite bargains to be had.
There are a few things currently available that would be of interest to Ivy Stylers. A tartan shirt, unlogo'd with J Press style flap and third collar button and locker loop.Wool-cashmere knits with suede elbow patches and a suede newsboy blouson.
Very pleased with the Black Watch, which I wore out to lunch today. The Turkish restaurant in Radford boasts an uncommonly fine-looking waitress who turned out to be Algerian.
I'm thinking about booking a single ticket to that country immediately.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CX12og4Lrbd/
Better--than ivy then or most of the cloth on Savile Row now. Norton & sons did a version of something like this in lightweight Scabal which I have but I wish it were more polo which during this period really heightened the American look of the cloth itself.