Acres of ground covered on the button-down - naturally - and the collar roll - again, naturally - but what of the spread collar, if done with refinement?
I saw a photograph of Roy Lichtenstein the other day. He was wearing a chambray shirt with a modest spread collar - quite likely in his studio near Wall Street. It looked good.
Contrast that with the rather extreme examples sometimes to be seen: Gene Kelly's character in 'Singin' In The Rain' comes to mind (although that is set in 1926-7). Was it truly a look of the time (perhaps worn with an Argyle sleeveless vest)?
As for the unbuttoned button-down, well, sometimes I'll still do it. If the collar is skimpy, why on earth not?
The BD is the only collar I think that really looks equally good with or without a tie. And as we are now officially in the post tie era, the only competition for a BD, even in ivy circles, comes from polo shirts and other highly informal items.
Last edited by Yuca (2022-03-04 05:00:02)
Jack Sheldon, in 'Run, Buddy, Run' (1967, I think - was it ever shown on TV outside the US?) is seen wearing a Madras half-sleeve with a spread collar: so - quite 'Boom Years'? I think we need an American poster (possibly of a certain age) to comment.
But I take Yuca's point. Very few of us on here would naturally navigate away from a collar roll (or even a button-down) lacking one in favour of a spread collar.
I used to see shirts in 'Wild' (Nottingham Americana store) circa 2009-10 that made me want to turn quickly away. These were often with spearpoint collars, sometimes wildly exaggerated, often in 'interesting' colours and made of unnatural fibres. Arrow shirts looked good in comparison. Van Heusen looked slightly better.
From memory, I think I only own three non button downs. All I think are more 'semi' spread. Or straight. I really can't tell much difference between those.
One long sleeve blue oxford cloth, which kind of works ok in the right place. A linen short sleeve for dog days. And an old Dickies chambray that I wear for chopping wood, building cabins and fighting bears.
Spearpoints are for blokes who have watched Goodfellas more often than is healthy.
My face is round. Practically spherical. A spread collar with tie makes it more so. Not good.
When I go non-BD it's with a forward point collar, which I actually prefer with suits. And since I hardly ever wear a suit anymore...
Spread collars on casual shirts are fine by me.
I have a few plain collar shirts. All good quality and many years old . A couple are linen summer shirts. I don't wear them much because I think BD shirts look better (as Yuca says with or without tie) and are more versatile . Never considered them remotely ivy.
The spread collar puts me in mind of Jermyn Street types. Possibly bought by guys who want to look a bit more sophisticated and show that they think about their wardrobe choices, but then some of them disprove that by wearing them without a tie which looks awful. I’ve come round to thinking that a simple point collar looks best with a suit when attempting a degree of formality. The button down, although very ubiquitous, still adds a relaxed feel to an outfit and how often do you see someone with a decent roll? I’ve never bothered with pin collars or tab collars (uncomfortable and fiddly), regarding them as somewhat experimental and liable to make you look as though you are ‘trying too hard’ - one of the cardinal sins of the Ivy internet world, I tend to feel that spread collars are in the same territory.
Prince Charles wears spread collars a lot and looks great in them, but then he’s most definitely not a Jermyn Street type.
The first shirt I bought at Russell Street, a Hartford, had a spread collar. I wish I had that shirt now.
'I’ve come round to thinking that a simple point collar looks best with a suit when attempting a degree of formality. The button down, although very ubiquitous, still adds a relaxed feel to an outfit'
Agreed. Subtle, quality cuff links also add a degree of formality to a point collar shirt without losing the essential ivy character.
On saying that: the days when a good quality sack suit with BD and tie (not a knit) was too informal for certain occasions that didn't require evening dress are, realistically, long gone.
Some of the shirts I wear around the house or for walking have collars I would describe as 'truncated' rather than spread. Having said that, they're very much in the minority.
No button down, no purchase. Done.
I spent decades being told what was acceptable formal wear for work. I'm a strategy/marketing/creative board director amongst the norms. So sod that. Its why I want BDs to get away from that formal, spread collar, old school stuff. My whole aim in business is to be the necessary counter balance of those people. That's literally what Ivy is for me.
The point about a tie working best with a spread collar is irrelevant for me too, I got rid of all my suits, spread collar shirts and silk ties years ago. Smart but separate sports coats, BDs, knitted ties. That point of distinction, it's why I'm here.
Last edited by An Unseen Scene (2022-03-04 12:34:48)
If you ever have to go to court or a wedding or a funeral then a suit is still unbeatable. For job interviews it can be a liability.
Last edited by Yuca (2022-03-04 12:35:58)
Looking at more photographs from the book on Norman Mailer (a very hefty paperback), it seems that spread collars were the norm circa 1950 for 'leisure shirts'. The only shot so far of him wearing a button-down (not a bad roll) it's with his tie tugged down, the way you sometimes see Sinatra do it. But it's generally spread collar on a sports shirt, rather baggy pants (look to be plain-fronted), substantial-looking shoes.
Hartford polo shirts as sold in JS had a spread collar.
My older friend told of his button on shirt collars he had to steam each week back in the mid 60s.
Are we talking about camp collars or true spread collars?
More spread than camp I'd say. I'll take another look at the photographs.