John Lobb Paris RTW shoes are made in England. The London-only John Lobb makes only bespoke.

This is alot harder than l thought Tony. Splitting hairs between b/w Church's (the good ones) and Grenson Masterpieces is a really tough one when comparing materials and constructions. Even within the same range of shoes, quality can vary slightly eg, l have some G.M with identicle soles and materials but some are more closely stitched than others, so this is becoming tricky.

One thing l will go against the grain with is Trickers. People rap them up so much on the forums, but l find them to be below the Grenson Masterpieces and Church's. All the soles and heals of my Trickers are wearing down very quickly with minimal wear. l don't think much of the construction either, definately lower than the above mentioned shoos, maybe on a mid level Grenson/C&J benchgrade level. Eventhough i've got the big fat Trickers, they don't feel strong and the construction looks messy. Eventhough i'm not impressed with the Trickers, they are still some of my favourite shoos because they are big fat ugly buggers with big double soles (l love the designs...not too fancy pants).

And yes, there is a noticable difference b/w Grenson Masterpieces and Grenson mid level shoos. The difference is not just a channelled sole v/s a stitched aloft sole, it's more than that. Most noticable difference is that the soles of the GM are much better stitched on (closer stitching), but the leathers (soles and uppers) are better too. l'm not a huge fan of the Grenson Masterpiece, but it is one hell of a shoo...so well made.

Last edited by The_Shooman (2009-03-23 01:12:43)

Good idea TV, a couple of quick thoughts..

- Not sure if these are meant to retain their rankings across country of origin also, but if so, I would rank the C&J handgrade above Alden, and I might actually put it very close to Church's.  There are touches about the C&J handgrade (channeled sole for example) that I think make them slightly better than Church's, but Church's has that substantial feel about them that make me hesitate.  At a minimum, I'd put these above the Alden, and either just below or on par with Church's.  If you are talking benchgrade C&J, above Alden but clearly below Church's

- What?  No Italy?    I think we would need a column for Italian shoes, because there are some very fine shoes coming out of Italy, Santoni, Mantellassi, Lattanzi, and Ferragamo Tramezza to name just two.  I am sure there are many others, but these are the ones I am most familiar with

- I will give some thought as to ranking the Italians, and I am sure my rankings will be controversial, since I think the Tramezza is one of the best made shoes available in the sub $1,000 (USD) range

- St. Crispins (Austria) should be in the other column, and I would put these on par with John Lobb

- Dinkelacker in Germany, not sure of ranking

I'll give some more thought to this, but look forward to some of our other shoe afficianados (fritzl springs to mind) to helping with this project also..

Yeah there is a lot to discuss here, and shit we are getting some good comments.

Shooey is right this is really complex. The table/chart is just an extremely prelim thing, tossed out to nudge brains into action.

Making a "ranking" is problematic, although at the initial stage I think it is the only way to organize discussion. I think in reality a number of brands will be more or less the same, from an objective standpoint on quality, but touchy-feely issues like design will vary considerably. I only wear classic designs, but others seem to be more flexible or adventuresome in their tastes. So I guess design should be dropped for the moment, although I think it is essential that shoos included in the list should sell some classic designs at least.

The reason behind all this is because Shooey and I have been a wee bit pissed off at the misinformation being peddled as Gospel Truth in the Andyland Shoe Pyramid. So we wanted to hammer at the bad points in that, but we realized the only way to do that is to do the whoel thing over.

*****

OK, I will try to update the table/chart this afternoon based on the new comments (when I get bored of doing work).

So please keep comments coming, esp if you have special knowledge of a particular brand/country.

Even if we don't ever generate an official new Shoo Pyramid, the comments and discussion will be worth collecyting together for reference. I've learned a bunch just from the comments coming in less than 24 hours.

Last edited by The_Shooman (2009-03-23 19:45:33)

just some quick brainstorming l had over lunch.........

we can rank the various ranges of brands = materials used (plastic toe puffs v's leather toe puffs + how that can make a difference, and leather qualities used), constructions used and why some are better than others (even goodyear v's goodyear), handlasting v's machine lasting in the various ranges + talk why handlasting is so important to a good shoo. We can also talk about the various `feathers' in the various ranges. The various heals used on the shoes. lt all adds up to workmanship and various quality.

When we have ranked the various ranges of brands and spoke in detail about the materials and how they are made and the pros and cons of that, we can then put a pyramid together.

lt would be nice to eventually write an article up and pop it in Film Noir Buffs editorial section and give credit to all the guys who were kind enough to help out. After that, we can post the link all over L.L, S.F, AAAC and anywhere else.

l'd love to hear something about the quality control with E.G, Lobb and G&G.

lf we email some of these shoe companies and tell them we are putting together a shoe guide and explain to them how it will be free online and word-of-mouth marketing for their companies, i'm sure they will be willing to help by providing details of their processes (not secret details, just details in how the shoes are made).

Last edited by The_Shooman (2009-03-23 22:05:11)

Last edited by Cruz Diez (2009-03-25 22:58:50)