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#26 2012-09-16 09:29:03

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

I'll let Mark counter that... but i think you've missed where he's coming from a bit. Not sure he was talking about any UK/US battle... just himself and using UK ivy as a whole to help bolster it.

Mark?


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#27 2012-09-16 09:30:40

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

MarkCoyle wrote:

My Grandfather's Pants - I can only be who I am, precious and all.   We're all here to put up views and discuss them, so I do.   With Jim gone for now I thought it was worth stimulating a bit of discussion. 

Slitting your throat might be a bit over the top and there's good people here in the forum who do it for free if you need it.   

Love the 'tache.   Movember soon everyone.   Not sure if there is an 'Ivy facial hair' thread in the archives

Oops, nevermind. Crossed posts.


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#28 2012-09-16 09:33:15

MarkCoyle
Member
Posts: 410

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

My Grandfather's Paints - you're the one who mentioned 'zeitgeist' in a post.   I really wouldn't dare.   If you don't like the 'BS' it's easy either post up some stuff or go somewhere you'll enjoy, it's easy.   As for your other stuff, it is easy to critique, harder to post up something interesting.   Come on, post up some stuff and get a discussion going.   Your avatar makes me think you're going to offer fondue and seduce me to the sounds of Manhattan Transfer.

[edited to add the following]
I do use ebay for such as shirts but have had some really bad experiences and vintage shirts often do not fit me due to my 'modern' shape.    There will also be people reading this (far more than post, hello all) who want an 'everyman Ivy' type image and that's perfectly fine.   Wearing vintage clothes in a modern business setting can really look off, so I have to live in the times I am in.   T. M. Lewin aren't BB, Troy or Mercers but I didn't say they are.  They are perfectly serviceable low-cost shirts that try a bit more than other high street vendors to get the details right.   Let's give them a bit of credit for that or we just all sound pompus and elitist.   There's a place for that but in the modern world the suit has increasingly gone, the tie is going, now I'm seeing directors of companies sitting in polos.    So I'm just trying to spread a little (sartorial) happiness as the song says.

Last edited by MarkCoyle (2012-09-16 09:48:33)

 

#29 2012-09-16 09:35:15

MarkCoyle
Member
Posts: 410

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

I wasn't creating or stimulating any USA vs UK battle, I hate all that and had a tussle about it here before.   I was contrasting influences, that's all to carry on the seed of a discussion.   I've eventually learned to not take it too seriously, there's no hidden intent in my posts.

{edited for basic spelling changes]

Last edited by MarkCoyle (2012-09-16 09:35:55)

 

#30 2012-09-16 09:52:35

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: Staines-upon-Thames, Middlesex
Posts: 6070

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

My Grandfather's Pants wrote:

Really? It made me want to slit my throat? It sounds so precious.

I thought Mark's post was an excellent summation of the difference in ethos between the US and UK streams of ivy, right on the money.

However I agree with you about TM Lewin, truly awful, barely one step above Top Man on the sartorial ladder.

I see you have got into this silly practice of changing your identity on the forum (sigh).


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

 

#31 2012-09-16 09:58:51

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

woofboxer wrote:

I like the look worn by Sean Crowley, although he is 'tie'd' in with the dreaded R.L.

http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … rowley.jpg

One of those little Vimeo films on him here:

http://vimeo.com/37906178

Hmmm, clearly Sean Crowley is no longer living the 30s dream as he espoused in his video.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#32 2012-09-16 10:25:00

Drum Thunder !!!
Son of Odin
From: the Time that Land Forgot.
Posts: 3768

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

If I could retain passwords, I would nee have the bother!


No it doesn't represent it at all, only the editorial turf war between Jim, JP and Chenners, are you saying that the only reputable source of Ivy in the Western hemisphere is John Simons? Because that's the only UK supplier of the style I can think of, all that goes on Chen's site doesn't represent the US, yes, you have the New York crowd, and that draws attention, but what about everything else you can still buy in America. All the quality footwear, the shirts still from Mercer and the like. I think it was drawn up as an us vs. them, and I think it's pretty short sighted and needless. Doesn't make you any better dressed, especially if you're wearing Lewin.


Arrives unpressed and minimally packaged.

 

#33 2012-09-16 10:38:08

MarkCoyle
Member
Posts: 410

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

My Grandfather's Pants - you read far, far too much into my posts.  It really isn't an us and them in my view.

Let me use me as an example, I'm not born in the USA, never been to the eight Ivy universities, never visited a USA Ivy original clothing shop, worked there only a few times - so I am bound to have a different cultural experience which Patricia Mears acknowledges herself in the Ivy Style book I am sat reading today.    You can say that this invalidates my interest in Ivy style and that's fine, I really wouldn't care. 

I never said I or anyone was better dressed, or that Simons is the only source.   I don't think you understand my posts at all and it's possibly best if you just ignore them.   In the same way I was explaining that UK cultural experience brings something that creates difference to Ivy style understanding here, so does the USA.   We share an interest and a language but we are different, there is some commonality but our countries are different and must be allowed to be so.

I refer to page 16 of the Ivy Style book that refers back to Boyer's original book "It's postmodern Ivy League.  It's a more conscious thing.  Even the jazz guys wjho played on campuses very consciously copied that look and modified it'.   What I am referring to is that continuum which separated by distance and culture spawns something new.   Not better, just different.  Indeed, isn't that how Ivy Style itself started as a different re-spawning of UK clothing for the USA Ivy university attendees?

I don't know who you are or the preconceptions you are bringing to the interpretations of my posts, but I suggest just ignoring them and saving yourself the time to get irate at my posts.   If you really want to get into it, use your own name and start to explain what you mean because quite honestly your last post made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

#34 2012-09-16 11:06:53

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: Staines-upon-Thames, Middlesex
Posts: 6070

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

This was the bit of Mark's post I liked:

I agree entirely and this is supported by the book.  I guess we bring a different sensibility to it in the UK, less academic and rooted in USA society and more stimulated by aspects of popular culture.  Of course many might quite rightly disagree if their inspiration is different but I can only speak personally and observe similar inclinations here.

I think you have the whole difference in US / UK thinking there. I don't think he said John Simons was the only place you could get good clothes, oh no that wasn't it at all. In fact he didn't mention JS.

........................................................................................................................

Mark, on Sunday afternoons Bop gets high so don't expect too much sense from him.


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

 

#35 2012-09-16 11:07:46

MarkCoyle
Member
Posts: 410

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

Reading the Ivy Style book this afternoon it is useful but a dull read and the pictures of decent quality aren't that many.  It's well made but going to be resold once read and some images scanned in.   The section on Edward III is awful and doesn't actually have any pictures of him in Ivy.   Note that film has been deliberately kept out of the book according to the introduction and Steve McQueen is specifically not included (forewarning for advocates).   However Haircut 100 are mentioned and Jack Wills gets a full colour page of photos.   What the book has done wonderfully (and it has been helpful) is make me realise that I really don't care about the history in the early 20th century in detail.   I've read a lot in various books so there is inevitably some repetition and Patricia Mears says it is more an introduction than detailed coverage.   It's just that the enjoyment is in the clothes themselves (as Jim said earlier in his last post which seems on the button).   There are some glaring pictorial omissions, why not show a BB sack no 1 suit or shirt in perfect reproduction for example?   It's mostly sport coats, nothing on suits, trousers and other aspects, very little on ties, nothing on hats, no shoes shown at all other than on a couple of posters.   The book also stops once we get to jazz adoption then there is a gap until we get to revival in 1980, there is nothing on the wider adoption of Ivy in society, it becoming square in the 1960s, the casualisation of Ivy in the 1970s.  There is also nothing at all on coats other than the original polo coat.  A fair proportion of the book covers post-modern prep looks rather than trad Ivy.  As I say it's nice, but I read it in an hour and some is reprints from Boyer's book.

 

#36 2012-09-16 11:11:36

MarkCoyle
Member
Posts: 410

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

Is that Bop?   My goodness.    Lots to do with family (just back) then work so back in a day or so.  TTFN.

 

#37 2012-09-16 11:33:04

Drum Thunder !!!
Son of Odin
From: the Time that Land Forgot.
Posts: 3768

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

Well you obviously do care, if you want to live in a world where no one oppose you, start a blog like Chens, and delete any comments that go against what you are saying.

If I'm not making any sense to you it was because I was referring to what Woofy had written in that last post. So let me just take the time to go through what I mean clearly, because then at least you know what my issue is.

Chens was the one to draw the assumption people that didn't have right to the clothes shouldn't wear or have proper knowledge of them, that's because that was the only angle he had over people like Jim, or anyone that commented on his blatant short-comings on the subject. His argument, I know better I'm a US citizen. Bollocks, that's not how knowledge works.

It didn't matter that he himself had been about as close to attending an Ivy League university as you or I have. I believe he also liked that angle, because if you look at his other activities, he is very interest in the monied people and climbing the ladder, no better way in, than to write about the things, these people want to do and own. So don't worry about your education, that's not an issue. With anyone outside of Chens, and his neurosis.

The UK cultural difference to Ivy is again editorial, you've been sucked in by The Ivy Look, and things on here, and actually this is probably something I have been guilty of too, Jim is very clever framing things in people's minds without the realising. But he is a guerilla marketer by his own admission.

I think we've finally got to a point know where people have forgotten a lot of the editorial in TIL, and we can now enjoy a wider range of clothes, without people waving it about like a rule book, in HWATIL the clothes were taken in a broader context, and we maybe saw a move away from the primer that was TIL.

So when you talk about the cultural differences, it is really not that different, the only thing being, people with long enough memories in America, might associate the values of Ivy League education and the clothes if they saw someone wearing them today, whilst in the UK someone unversed in Ivy, as a tailored look might just think, that person is dressed smart.

So really what I'm saying is there are no real cultural differences other than what certain bloggers and authors, and other people have played on, to create their own identify, and get some kind of notoriety from. And you've been sucked into that, and you playing up the preciousness of the position UK Ivy has over the US, where I'm sure everyone in the US was equally taken primarily taken by jazz, films, actors etc. From the 20's onwards.

There is no new Ivy, I promise you now as cool as Jason Jules might look to some, that look will be as played out as any other trend, and what get's left is the idea of classic proportions, and details standing the test of time, not trend, or an individuals take on it. This isn't a fluid, thing that's transgressing, this is almost set in stone by the designs of the period, in a way its classicism with clothes. That doesn't matter where you are on the planet, or what school you went to.

So that is my problem there is a spectre of what you were talking about that doesn't really exsit, Ivy is being re-marketed by some absolute bus-boys in New York and it's all being lorded up for a brief time, and when that's gone we can all still carry on, not as UK or US, but people into, classic Brooks, Ivy and natural shoulders.

So if you talk about TM Lewin being a good BD I won't ignore it, or if you praise anything else or say, a patch pocket is Ivy detailing, on a Marks and Spencers jacket which is clearly a take on Italian light tailoring, then again, I'm probably going to take issue with it, because to my knowledge, and till I'm stood corrected by someone that knows more than me, that's the way these things go.


Arrives unpressed and minimally packaged.

 

#38 2012-09-16 11:39:26

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

My Grandfather's Pants wrote:

There is no new Ivy, I promise you now as cool as Jason Jules might look to some, that look will be as played out as any other trend, and what get's left is the idea of classic proportions, and details standing the test of time, not trend, or an individuals take on it. This isn't a fluid, thing that's transgressing, this is almost set in stone by the designs of the period, in a way its classicism with clothes. That doesn't matter where you are on the planet, or what school you went to.

This is true, Ivy is pure classicism in mens style, it was and remains the ultimate. IMO.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#39 2012-09-16 11:58:57

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

MarkCoyle wrote:

However Haircut 100 are mentioned

Exactly how are Haircut 100 mentioned? A band that appealed to bobby soxer aged girls and had one album of notice and whose influence is negligible other than sparking a certain style of jumpers for a season. I will say though, for an obvious girls band, they had some great tracks, but their influence should definitely not be over estimated. They were B list players at the time.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#40 2012-09-16 12:10:53

MarkCoyle
Member
Posts: 410

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

Briefly

Haircut100 - It was to do with style and taking elements from the past.  I guess with them, shetlands.

As for New Ivy  - I think I was pretty clear in rejecting it.   The analysis is all getting too deep for me.   I'll think it over but I've never met nor spoken to anyone of the people mentioned off this forum.  It's enjoyable to discuss but really doesn't matter all that much to me.   I'm not part of a clique or a shared mindset.

My Grandfather's Pants - you accused me of being precious, jeez man read your own post back.

 

#41 2012-09-16 12:16:01

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

MarkCoyle wrote:

Briefly

Haircut100 - It was to do with style and taking elements from the past.  I guess with them, shetlands.

Thanks for that. Interesting. Who was the author of that piece? I am intrigued by this, and I will tell you why after I've mulled this over a bit more.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#42 2012-09-16 12:20:49

Drum Thunder !!!
Son of Odin
From: the Time that Land Forgot.
Posts: 3768

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

Ok in very basic terms then Mark, I don't think you have much of a clue as to what you are talking about.


Arrives unpressed and minimally packaged.

 

#43 2012-09-16 12:48:17

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

My Grandfather's Pants wrote:

The UK cultural difference to Ivy is again editorial, you've been sucked in by The Ivy Look, and things on here,

....or if you praise anything else or say, a patch pocket is Ivy detailing, on a Marks and Spencers jacket which is clearly a take on Italian light tailoring, then again, I'm probably going to take issue with it, because to my knowledge, and till I'm stood corrected by someone that knows more than me, that's the way these things go.

That's a hell of an insight you have into Marks head there Bop...


Yer man Soggy (Goodyear welt) often talks about soft Italian shoulders and the natural American shoulder interchangeably. Why do you never question that?


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#44 2012-09-16 13:47:50

Drum Thunder !!!
Son of Odin
From: the Time that Land Forgot.
Posts: 3768

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

I'm not saying anything along those lines, I'm saying a while back Mark made a reasoning that he was seeing lots of Ivy detailing and one of the place was M&S, all I'm saying is they are not Ivy details, or more to the fact, M&S have been doing those things for ages, especially on the Italian range light weight summer jackets. I'm not saying you can't wear what you want from where you want, but trying to pass of Italian style jackets at M&S as suddenly having Ivy details, or saying the TM Lewin button downs are a worthwhile purchase, is clueless, madness and all the above. I'm not just picking on the guy, he makes his bed by saying these things. And then when he gets picked up on them he goes into wet wipe mode. If I started wearing those western detail Pendletons, and saying they were boardshirts, you'd have me up. It's the same type of thing.


Arrives unpressed and minimally packaged.

 

#45 2012-09-17 04:56:24

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

I'm still intrigued that Haircut 100 get a mention. Their link to the Ivy pantheon strikes me as tenuous at best.

I believe that the author of that part of the book, slid his/her favourite band in on a whim. I don't blame them, I often slip in Talking Heads tracks in, or cunningly manipulate postings in the direction of serial killers so I can post Youtube links to various versions of Pyscho Killer.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#46 2012-09-17 06:38:08

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#47 2012-09-17 06:46:41

steve mcqueen fan
Agent Ivy.
Posts: 1449

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party


"McQueen's message was signaled through subtraction... in a tweed or herringbone jacket and a ribbed swearer he had an electric austerity".

 

#48 2012-09-17 07:09:50

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

steve mcqueen fan wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnBlst3T7bY

That's actually a really good cover!


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#49 2012-09-17 13:02:52

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party

That reminded of Weird Al Yankovic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcJjMnHoIBI


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#50 2012-09-17 13:03:57

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Pics from Ivy Style opening night party


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

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