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#51 2013-02-05 08:39:55

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

carpu65 wrote:

Ivy league is above all East coast establishment,and mainstream Ivy in the boom years is for the most suburbian colonial cottage and commuters.

Ivy League fashion has next to nothing to do with the east coast establishment beyond marketing.


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#52 2013-02-05 08:44:03

Armchaired
Ivy I.V.
From: Old England
Posts: 5145

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Heretic! Heretic! Burn him!


“I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.”

 

#53 2013-02-05 08:48:38

12BarBlues
Mr. Ivy
Posts: 2462

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Yawn, who cares. I like the clothes .I like the clothes we talk about on this forum, some of it is just Americana but so what, we still talk a shit load of Ivy too. More than anywhere else on the web.


"To be honest I do like FNB...I always feel one of the thunderbirds when I say it."

 

#54 2013-02-05 08:55:10

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Liam Mac wrote:

carpu65 wrote:

Ivy league is above all East coast establishment,and mainstream Ivy in the boom years is for the most suburbian colonial cottage and commuters.

Ivy League fashion has next to nothing to do with the east coast establishment beyond marketing.

Carpu misses the fact that these were NYC RTW department store clothes on the whole in origin. Certainly they were were worn by WASPs... And all the rest. Ivy had a huge Jewish following from the start (Long before the silly marketing tag 'Ivy').

Remind me of the religion of Jacobi Press who copied Brooks ?

 

#55 2013-02-05 09:03:01

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

I say the fantasy regarding Ivy is the American campus one... Or to be more accurate it was the Marketing of the clothes.

 

#56 2013-02-05 09:14:09

Russell...Street
By any other name...
Posts: 100156

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

carpu65 wrote:

Jimmy Frost Mellor - wrote:

Comment by Christian — February 3, 2013 @ 7:55 am
Funny little irony just occurred to me with regards to the Europeans interested in Ivy.
We know from the Talk Ivy forum that the dozen or so active members there hold several things in the highest esteem:
* The Ivy League Look blog, because it presents only period material and nothing from the world of today
* The Newton Street Vintage Etsy shop, because it deals almost exclusively in vintage clothing
* Old photos, advertisements and record albums lionized for their coolness, divorced from the modern world
Coupled with this sort of purist, traditionalist or orthodox stance is a contempt for any kind of updated take on Ivy. In this sense they would seem to validate only the real deal, or “true Ivy.” Yet here’s where the irony comes in.
Coupled with this apparent orthodox stance is their Main Street/boom years/everyman ethos, which is necessary to their point of view on Ivy to keep their conscience clean. There’s no room in their hip Ivy fantasy construct for the world of the campus or the Eastern Establishment, the true wellspring of the Ivy League Look.
So all those midcentury knock-offs that validate their taste for Ivy are of course derivative and faux, if they were to take as hardline a stance on them as they do towards contemporary manufacturers.
So their hardline stance really comes down simply to a point in time, midcentury, rather than a sense of genuine Ivy pedigree. As long as an item of clothing or a photo of a guy looking cool is from the ’50s or ’60s, it’s “authentic,” no matter how derivative or tangential it was at the time.
This is why they so often confuse or at least lump together things that are merely contemporary to the heyday but which have no other relation to the Ivy League Look.
Past = good, present = bad (unless it perfectly mimics the past).
That’s also why they see Ivy as a narrow set of rules to follow, or a platonic ideal that one either succeeds or fails at when getting dressed. There’s little room for individual style when you’re trying to mimic a look from the past.
Of all the Americans I’ve met and corresponded with while doing this site, not a single one of them takes this absurd style-cult approach to getting dressed. Their interest in the Ivy heyday provides inspiration and they find the cultural history interesting. I’ve never met anyone who actually seeks to dress “Ivy.”

I have fear that Christian for the most have right: let's be honest, the more correct name for this forum is "Talk mainstream American clothing of boom years".
There is nothing of wrong in this.
And the few british or French ( in Italy no one dressed ivy..some guys English style maybe,but not ivy at all) cool cat of early 60s  that dressed  American sack and penny loafer and love cool jazz and modernist architecture is not  representative of the Ivy League style and world.
Ivy league is above all East coast establishment,and mainstream Ivy in the boom years is for the most suburbian colonial cottage and commuters.

Hmmm...

During let's say 1957 to maybe about 1964 mainstream America was dressed in Ivy or at least in Ivy-ish clothes. At least about half of the male population...

It's not that much to do with the campus world, though.

Of course, there were those who had worn that look before the 1950s and those who still wore it after the 60s...

Once again that's not that much to do with colleges and big money. Apart from the obvious fact, that rich people have some dough for decent clothes and that the "elite" tends to study at the expensive "elite universities"...


What this forum talks about is another matter.

It's called "Talk Ivy" ... as long as we keep that in mind over here...

Haven't been on board a while.

Maybe the parochial topics have become prominent again during my absence?

Otherwise, I think there's a lot of misunderstandings....

Last edited by Russell...Street (2013-02-05 09:15:04)


42R | 16.5/34 | 34/30 | US 10D/UK 9.5E
"Horses, horses... horseshit!"

“As honest as you can expect a man to be in a world where its going out of style.”  - Raymond Chandler

 

#57 2013-02-05 09:24:10

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Pleased to see Chensvold has read all this !

Chens - The clothes came from a shop. Retail. They were sold to people. They were marketed. Have you ever gone shopping ?

Brooks dictated & invented the American WASP wardrobe. They did. A shop did. Where did you think the clothes came from ?

Durrrrrrr  !

wink

 

#58 2013-02-05 09:29:29

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

A shame Chens wants to blog on menswear but doesn't work in the schmutter industry...

 

#59 2013-02-05 09:37:30

Liam Mac
Ivy Avenger
From: Beyond!
Posts: 4789

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Jimmy Frost Mellor - wrote:

Pleased to see Chensvold has read all this !

Chens - The clothes came from a shop. Retail. They were sold to people. They were marketed. Have you ever gone shopping ?

Brooks dictated & invented the American WASP wardrobe. They did. A shop did. Where did you think the clothes came from ?

Durrrrrrr  !

wink

He'll work it out sooner or later.


"You've gotta get up close like this and - bada-BING! - you blow their brains all over your nice Ivy League suit."

suits/jackets 36/37S. waist 29-30. shirts 14.5/15 32.

 

#60 2013-02-05 10:00:12

Harpo
The Best In The West
From: West Wales
Posts: 2635

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Russell...Street wrote:

some photoshop job, I guess...

Maybe made because they used a riff from a Zevon song on DSMD?

http://bongojazz.blogspot.de/2008/11/on … night.html

Ahh! Merci, mystery solved.

"You better stay away from him - he'll rip your lungs out Jim....... I'd really like to meet his tailor."


Eeeeeee-lec-tricity!

 

#61 2013-02-05 10:19:06

carpu65
Member
Posts: 1367

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Russell...Street wrote:

Of course, there were those who had worn that look before the 1950s and those who still wore it after the 60s...

Once again that's not that much to do with colleges and big money. Apart from the obvious fact, that rich people have some dough for decent clothes and that the "elite" tends to study at the expensive "elite universities"...

Bingo!

 

#62 2013-02-05 11:23:55

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

carpu65 wrote:

Russell...Street wrote:

Of course, there were those who had worn that look before the 1950s and those who still wore it after the 60s...

Once again that's not that much to do with colleges and big money. Apart from the obvious fact, that rich people have some dough for decent clothes and that the "elite" tends to study at the expensive "elite universities"...

Bingo!

Ya think ?

Clothes come from shops. Durrrrrrr !   wink

 

#63 2013-02-05 12:04:53

Goodyear welt
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 2120

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Russell...Street wrote:

Goodyear welt wrote:

The "classic" look in clothing really should be "a quality period of fashion". The 20s and 30s had it, the 50s and 60s (most of) had it. The rest leaves me cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD_kgKyDk6c

from the 1980s:


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/632 … 1c27_o.jpg

http://lifeisnoise.com/wp-content/uploa … ners-1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2270/241 … 8617_o.gif

http://www.dexys.org/sitebuildercontent … 00h300.jpg


Ivy was never about period dressing. Always a classic look if you think of it that way...

You might argue about the influence of "fashion", maybe versus "style", the "modern" versus the "traditional", but in men's clothing these (false) dichotomies don't work.

You might even point out that there was a "retro element" during the boom years, as the Weejun put it on his blog recently, because of course in the 50s/60s the fashion had similarities to American 20s/30s styles (and you might trace this further back to the bd shirts in Britain at the turn of the century and the 1917 Brooks #1 sack's origin in late Victorian and early Edwardian English tailoring)...

but at the end you'll find a continuum.... or "fashion cycles" (Reg Presley was an expert, no, that was crop cycles)... or you'll find you're own "golden age"... or a theory of decadence... whatever you want to prove...

Fact is, the real look will never get out of style...

I hear what your saying Jim, but, thats not really the fashion of the 8os period is it? It was more mega huge shoulders, oversized shirts, hanging out. Panama suits were big I seem to recall.  Those suit shoulders were really mental. Colourways were often vivid. It might not have
been what most of us on here wore but those were the mainstream fashions. Made Tubs and Crockett look almost good!

 

#64 2013-02-05 12:53:17

katon
Member
Posts: 235

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

I think maybe he's lacking a bit of context... Brooks and the Ivy League look were popular, but from a social status perspective, they were always second-tier.

Joseph W. Alsop, in his memoirs, writes about how Brooks was viewed when he was growing up, pre-Boom:

As for the men, the first rule was to go to London for suits and shoes as soon as you could afford it. If financial strain was then felt, shirts, neckties, and so forth might also be acquired in London, or even New York. But if expense was no object, it was preferable to seek these lesser articles from Charvet or Sulka in Paris. The less well-heeled, meanwhile, clothed, shirted, and shoed themselves at Brooks Brothers, and so did 90 percent of the young males until the fairly awe-inspiring moment when their fathers would take them to their London tailors—not necessarily in London, for the tailors’ and shoemakers’ representatives came to the US twice a year to see to the current wants of their regular customers on this side of the water.

...and we have the view described in Tom Wolfe's "The Secret Vice", written in 1964:

The worst jerks, as far as they are concerned—and people can lose out on jobs, promotions, the whole can of worms, because of this—are men who have dumped a lot of money, time and care into buying ready-made clothes from some Englishy dry goods shop on Madison Avenue with the belief that they are really "building fine wardrobes." Such men are considered to be bush leaguers, turkeys and wet smacks, the kind of men who tote the leather lunch pail home at night and look forward to having a drink and playing with the baby.

Last edited by katon (2013-02-05 13:09:38)

 

#65 2013-02-05 14:15:27

Axelist
Talker of the talk, walker of the walk.
From: age
Posts: 1201

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Some of this is a bit too scholastic for a simple character like me. I just somehow have the impression that the editor of a certain blog is very determined, if that word applies. How about a bit playing the melody of life on lighter notes? wink

Actually, the war of these two houses is something I do not like very much. Although I see the amusing side. However, the latest strategy seems to be to tell that all friends of the look on here - and in EUROPE - are only interested in the past, especially mid-century and are mock-ups anyway, because only US-citizens can wear the look naturally. Which is ironic, because if you take this idea to the extremes he and surely a lot of his followers would not be "worthy"' also. Yeah, let's leave it to the East Coast brahmins. smile

The core of this argument is that it is an acquired style for someone outside of the US?  Really? Isn't it for many inside the US also? Who cares, isn't it fashion anyway? wink

I don't know, it's a bit grim. I think he really would benefit from letting go of the style guru pose. I have fond memories of the piece on this article on trad blogs which some guy clearly cobbled together to deliver a shallow and amusing bit. The master single-handed tore it apart between two puffs of his pipe. All that it lacked was a QED at the end.

Oh dear, I never wanted to write so much on this topic. Time for my medication, I guess. smile


Just to get a repp..

 

#66 2013-02-05 14:24:45

Goodyear welt
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 2120

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Lets face it, if your not interested in Boom years stuff and you wanna wear the best in todays "soft" tailoring you'll be wearing Italian clothes anyway. Lets have all the European stuff back that the yanks have worked into Ivy or added a twist to and whats left?

I think Chens is being a bit cheeky really. Those Americans think they invented everything don't they?

 

#67 2013-02-05 14:26:53

Goodyear welt
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 2120

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Didn't JFK have Sack suits made on the Row?

 

#68 2013-02-05 14:27:24

Drum Thunder !!!
Son of Odin
From: the Time that Land Forgot.
Posts: 3768

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

I know we've looked at the influence of Italian tailoring on Ivy in the 50's but what about the 20's? Was anything going on then?


Arrives unpressed and minimally packaged.

 

#69 2013-02-06 02:41:24

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Goodyear welt wrote:

Russell...Street wrote:

Goodyear welt wrote:

The "classic" look in clothing really should be "a quality period of fashion". The 20s and 30s had it, the 50s and 60s (most of) had it. The rest leaves me cold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD_kgKyDk6c

from the 1980s:


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/632 … 1c27_o.jpg

http://lifeisnoise.com/wp-content/uploa … ners-1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2270/241 … 8617_o.gif

http://www.dexys.org/sitebuildercontent … 00h300.jpg


Ivy was never about period dressing. Always a classic look if you think of it that way...

You might argue about the influence of "fashion", maybe versus "style", the "modern" versus the "traditional", but in men's clothing these (false) dichotomies don't work.

You might even point out that there was a "retro element" during the boom years, as the Weejun put it on his blog recently, because of course in the 50s/60s the fashion had similarities to American 20s/30s styles (and you might trace this further back to the bd shirts in Britain at the turn of the century and the 1917 Brooks #1 sack's origin in late Victorian and early Edwardian English tailoring)...

but at the end you'll find a continuum.... or "fashion cycles" (Reg Presley was an expert, no, that was crop cycles)... or you'll find you're own "golden age"... or a theory of decadence... whatever you want to prove...

Fact is, the real look will never get out of style...

I hear what your saying Jim, but, thats not really the fashion of the 8os period is it? It was more mega huge shoulders, oversized shirts, hanging out. Panama suits were big I seem to recall.  Those suit shoulders were really mental. Colourways were often vivid. It might not have
been what most of us on here wore but those were the mainstream fashions. Made Tubs and Crockett look almost good!

Sorry Mate - I don't write 'Russell' anymore. However, Ivy was still very much alive in the 80s but it certainly wasn't the fashion. There was the 'preppy' boom though... Beyond that it was all as you say - 'Power Dressing', was that the term ?

Best -

Jim

 

#70 2013-02-06 03:01:01

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

katon wrote:

I think maybe he's lacking a bit of context... Brooks and the Ivy League look were popular, but from a social status perspective, they were always second-tier.

Joseph W. Alsop, in his memoirs, writes about how Brooks was viewed when he was growing up, pre-Boom:

As for the men, the first rule was to go to London for suits and shoes as soon as you could afford it. If financial strain was then felt, shirts, neckties, and so forth might also be acquired in London, or even New York. But if expense was no object, it was preferable to seek these lesser articles from Charvet or Sulka in Paris. The less well-heeled, meanwhile, clothed, shirted, and shoed themselves at Brooks Brothers, and so did 90 percent of the young males until the fairly awe-inspiring moment when their fathers would take them to their London tailors—not necessarily in London, for the tailors’ and shoemakers’ representatives came to the US twice a year to see to the current wants of their regular customers on this side of the water.

...and we have the view described in Tom Wolfe's "The Secret Vice", written in 1964:

The worst jerks, as far as they are concerned—and people can lose out on jobs, promotions, the whole can of worms, because of this—are men who have dumped a lot of money, time and care into buying ready-made clothes from some Englishy dry goods shop on Madison Avenue with the belief that they are really "building fine wardrobes." Such men are considered to be bush leaguers, turkeys and wet smacks, the kind of men who tote the leather lunch pail home at night and look forward to having a drink and playing with the baby.

100% the case. So it's the PRESENTATION (Marketing!) of the ready to wear rags from Brooks (which I love) as being 'elite' that's the real story here. All you have to do is think about it - How can RTW factory produced goods be elite? The stuff was produced in its millions. It's all marketing, which was largely how America was created from nothing anyway.

Viewing Marketing as 'the magic trump card' as Chens does is also 100% right. But not for the reason he thinks. Marketing does trump all the fantasies he's bought into because it was marketing which produced those fantasies in the first place.

Can you doubt that the ultimate status symbol at Harvard would have been a bespoke jacket from The Row in a good London cut? Not any common or garden domestically produced bit of schmutter. If Chens wants to talk 'Elite' he has to first understand the term and the nature of the concept. To call Brooks Elite would be like calling Harrods Elite - Neither is, if you know what you're talking about, but they position themselves in the marketplace as such to sell to those not of the Elite. Yeah, posh people shop in both places (they're always the minority in any cross section) but do you think that they regard themselves as buying the best when they shop there ?

 

#71 2013-02-06 04:06:33

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Interesting ?


"There is a chicken and egg aspect to this line of thinking. Clothes were sold and clothes were bought: Which came first the customer or the product?
That Brooks catered to the East Coast Establishment there is no doubt. They also catered to the aspirational. All elites are small by their very nature and so to create a viable business the aspirational must have been Brooks main customers who would have bought the clothes as being the clothes of the elite. It’s all very circular.
What did the East Coast elite and the aspirational wear before Brooks? That part of this discussion alone interests me. Did Brooks (a commercial organisation) really create the WASP wardrobe as we would recognise it today? If so, then marketing cannot totally be discounted. Were the American elite ‘educated’ in how to dress like an American elite by Brooks?
"


Just in via PM on Facebook.

 

#72 2013-02-06 04:14:22

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

I'd say yes - And they educated the aspirational too.

Brooks are fascinating because of all the Brooks 'Firsts' in America - Seersucker, Madras, Buttondowns, Shetlands, the American Sack Suit, etc.

Brooks wrote the book. Others copied. Brooks INVENTED the style. A shop did. They imported it all & put it all together. Quite a feat. The American WASP wardrobe we know today did not exist before Brooks Brothers. They dictated the style to their customers, not the other way around.

 

#73 2013-02-06 05:09:28

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 10889

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

But the customer had a choice to go elsewhere. The customer surely must have had an influence on maintaining lines i.e. gee wheez these button-downs are selling well, lets get some more in! And so on.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#74 2013-02-06 06:21:06

Russell...Street
By any other name...
Posts: 100156

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Jimmy Frost Mellor - wrote:

Goodyear welt wrote:

Russell...Street wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD_kgKyDk6c

from the 1980s:


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/632 … 1c27_o.jpg

http://lifeisnoise.com/wp-content/uploa … ners-1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2270/241 … 8617_o.gif

http://www.dexys.org/sitebuildercontent … 00h300.jpg


Ivy was never about period dressing. Always a classic look if you think of it that way...

You might argue about the influence of "fashion", maybe versus "style", the "modern" versus the "traditional", but in men's clothing these (false) dichotomies don't work.

You might even point out that there was a "retro element" during the boom years, as the Weejun put it on his blog recently, because of course in the 50s/60s the fashion had similarities to American 20s/30s styles (and you might trace this further back to the bd shirts in Britain at the turn of the century and the 1917 Brooks #1 sack's origin in late Victorian and early Edwardian English tailoring)...

but at the end you'll find a continuum.... or "fashion cycles" (Reg Presley was an expert, no, that was crop cycles)... or you'll find you're own "golden age"... or a theory of decadence... whatever you want to prove...

Fact is, the real look will never get out of style...

I hear what your saying Jim, but, thats not really the fashion of the 8os period is it? It was more mega huge shoulders, oversized shirts, hanging out. Panama suits were big I seem to recall.  Those suit shoulders were really mental. Colourways were often vivid. It might not have
been what most of us on here wore but those were the mainstream fashions. Made Tubs and Crockett look almost good!

Sorry Mate - I don't write 'Russell' anymore. However, Ivy was still very much alive in the 80s but it certainly wasn't the fashion. There was the 'preppy' boom though... Beyond that it was all as you say - 'Power Dressing', was that the term ?

Best -

Jim

GW, you're right in saying that Ivy wasn't mainstream in the 80s, yes. And in pop culture it was almost dead, except Dexys flirt with the look on DSMD... A footnote, if you want....

I just wanted to point out that you could still get that look, well, until about 1988, at Brooks Brothers and a few other places... it wasn't a dead style, and certainly not marketed as retro.

ed:
Cheers, Jim! I hope you're better now!


Maybe I should change my imposter account...

Last edited by Russell...Street (2013-02-06 06:22:33)


42R | 16.5/34 | 34/30 | US 10D/UK 9.5E
"Horses, horses... horseshit!"

“As honest as you can expect a man to be in a world where its going out of style.”  - Raymond Chandler

 

#75 2013-02-06 06:23:39

Russell...Street
By any other name...
Posts: 100156

Re: Ivy 'Classicism' ?

Jimmy Frost Mellor - wrote:

I'd say yes - And they educated the aspirational too.

Brooks are fascinating because of all the Brooks 'Firsts' in America - Seersucker, Madras, Buttondowns, Shetlands, the American Sack Suit, etc.

Brooks wrote the book. Others copied. Brooks INVENTED the style. A shop did. They imported it all & put it all together. Quite a feat. The American WASP wardrobe we know today did not exist before Brooks Brothers. They dictated the style to their customers, not the other way around.

Absolutely!


42R | 16.5/34 | 34/30 | US 10D/UK 9.5E
"Horses, horses... horseshit!"

“As honest as you can expect a man to be in a world where its going out of style.”  - Raymond Chandler

 

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