Film Noir Buff Style Forum / Red Flag clothing

Gilgamesh2003 · 2012-04-04 06:51:34

A recent conversation on contrast-collared shirts lead me to think about sartorial red flags, clothing choices that communicate a desperate and almost always self-negating attempt to look stylish, "dressy" or sophisticated. These are the sartorial equivalent of what Manny Farber called "white elephant art," art that draws attention to its own attempts to be meaningful and impressive and by so doing succeeds only in becoming heavy, blundering and stupid.

There is nothing inherently wrong with any of these pieces of clothing; when they are worn well, they look as good as anything else. But they seem to attract people who believe that a single really cool element can make an entire outfit elegant. iGents especially fall prey to these clothing shortcuts, since iGents are always looking for new "classic" things to wear. Most of these sartorial red flags are unusual, in the sense that they fall slightly outside the ordinary dress choices that most men make, but none of them are exotic or hard to find. To put it another way, these are items of clothing that stop the viewer, or that always demand notice.

I give a few examples here to start discussion:

Hats

(thanks to Heikki K for finding this one)

(this one is clearly costume)

(this last one comes from a Styleforum discussion of whether hats look costumey or not; it is used as evidence by both sides of the argument)

The day of the hat is gone for now; men, at least in the parts of America that I know well, just don't wear non-baseball hats. Online clothing pundits have covered this subject in exhaustive detail so I will not trouble to defend or attack hats here. I will simply say that most men look like basement-dwelling nerds when they wear them, unless the hat is in tune with every other element of the outfit, and is of a conservative and unobtrusive type.

Hats may be coming back. On a personal note I have a deeply repressed desire to wear a Panama hat (not in the "optimo" style of the above example); if I do so you may be assured that I will not post a picture of it on the internet.

Bow ties

(Brother Mouzone is the exception that proves the rule here)

This is a red flag that is often done right - much of the time bow ties look innocuous, and on occasion they even come off as jaunty. They also seem to attract the kind of iGent clothes novices who simply wish to change elements of their clothing without bothering to develop a sense of style. A bowtie is one of two kinds of things you can wear on your neck (not counting ascots and string ties), so obviously a well-developed wardrobe requires them, the thought process seems to go. The danger with bow ties is that you may look like a nerd, a neo-con (this may be a bonus for some), or the kind of guy who Daniel Clowes chooses as the protagonist of his graphic novels (or the kind of guy who uses the phrase "graphic novel" and refers frequently to Daniel Clowes).

These are just two examples out of many. I want to stress that I am not advancing a rule forbidding the wearing of bow ties and hats here - that is the way of Andyland, the country of rules, and I want nothing to do with it. These are simply two things that jar my aesthetic sense when I see them worn in a naive or annoying way.

Other examples?

fxh · 2012-04-04 10:38:27

Might I feign modesty and humbly propose the bare ankle? http://sexyankles.tumblr.com/

Gil - there is the issue of online wearing and irl wearing.??

I see a lot of bow ties irl and rarely do they look right. Some, on surgeons, look practical and familiar; all but a few would look better in almost any other old tie. They seem de riguer for CEOs/ Directors of Government Funded Art Galleries and Museums here. Then there is the ironic hipsters - but I guess they are a too easy target.

Hats are a difficult one here. Increasingly men (and women) sensibly wear hats when out in the sun to prevent melanomas. USA tractor hats/ baseball hats are worn by a few idiots but are generally seen as a bit infra dig. Some men try to pull off the outback Akubra look in the city with wide brimmed brown squatters hats or Auctioneers hats and to me it always looks stupid, although it seems to work as a signal/sign/signifier (cant remember the right term) , a shorthand of signaling that the wearer is patriotic and in touch with rural Australia (Patriotic and rural are conflated here - The only "real" Australians are white rural Australians even though 80% of us live in large cities withing 30 ks of the coast).

Many men, and many young men, have seen the damage the sun can do, like killing you, and seriously wear hats. Many, as I think I've mentioned before get too old to wear them ironically and have gradually begun to sort out a way to wear hats without looking like a dork or a hipster. Outdoor workers usually have to wear them mandated by OH&S. Shiney bum workers are still working it out, but each year I see more and more hats being worn without self consciousness with suits.

IRL, I hate the statement or power tie, usually bright shiney yellow or bright shiney red.

The statement floral shirt...

Bloody pocket hankies are popping up everywhere on the street too.

Last edited by fxh (2012-04-04 10:38:55)

fxh · 2012-04-04 10:49:37

gil opined wrote:
On a personal note I have a deeply repressed desire to wear a Panama hat (not in the "optimo" style of the above example); if I do so you may be assured that I will not post a picture of it on the internet.

I don't mind wearing hat - in theory. But in practice I find they are a nuisance. I have to take it off if I go inside, or get in a car and then I have to either hold it or put it somewhere and then forget it. And they muck up my hair.

If its raining they are great , but often if its raining its also windy and they blow off. Chasing a hat onto a wet road in front of cars is the stuff of Buster Keaton and Mr Bean not sophisticated louche flaneurs like me and you.

Anyway back to the Panama - I'm sharing and empathising here mate - Ms fxh - keeps on at me to wear a hat in summer and keeps ooing and ahhing over panamas whenever we see some. Only a few weeks ago we were somewhere, I forget where, where there was a selection of genuine Panamas. I very nearly had an off white number purchased for me , but we agreed the brim was a bit wide.

Last edited by fxh (2012-04-04 10:50:37)

Film Noir Buff · 2012-04-04 12:14:48

fxh wrote:
Might I feign modesty and humbly propose the bare ankle? http://sexyankles.tumblr.com/

Gil - there is the issue of online wearing and irl wearing.??

I see a lot of bow ties irl and rarely do they look right. Some, on surgeons, look practical and familiar; all but a few would look better in almost any other old tie. They seem de riguer for CEOs/ Directors of Government Funded Art Galleries and Museums here. Then there is the ironic hipsters - but I guess they are a too easy target.

Hats are a difficult one here. Increasingly men (and women) sensibly wear hats when out in the sun to prevent melanomas. USA tractor hats/ baseball hats are worn by a few idiots but are generally seen as a bit infra dig. Some men try to pull off the outback Akubra look in the city with wide brimmed brown squatters hats or Auctioneers hats and to me it always looks stupid, although it seems to work as a signal/sign/signifier (cant remember the right term) , a shorthand of signaling that the wearer is patriotic and in touch with rural Australia (Patriotic and rural are conflated here - The only "real" Australians are white rural Australians even though 80% of us live in large cities withing 30 ks of the coast).

Many men, and many young men, have seen the damage the sun can do, like killing you, and seriously wear hats. Many, as I think I've mentioned before get too old to wear them ironically and have gradually begun to sort out a way to wear hats without looking like a dork or a hipster. Outdoor workers usually have to wear them mandated by OH&S. Shiney bum workers are still working it out, but each year I see more and more hats being worn without self consciousness with suits.

IRL, I hate the statement or power tie, usually bright shiney yellow or bright shiney red.

The statement floral shirt...

Bloody pocket hankies are popping up everywhere on the street too.

We probably should wear hats for protection and/or warmth. They look strange to me on men and I am a big believer in more clothing, rather than less. Women look great in hats and should wear them more. Hats are at odds with modern hairstyles which creates a barrier to reintroduction.

I think hats, like bow ties are nice but too many of the wrong sort seem to wear them.

Goodyear welt · 2012-04-05 00:28:43

Outside of a flat cap, paperboy type of hat. Hats suck. The problem is they're either wore by Russell Brand types or men that dress like race horse trainers. Its not a good image to have. Very dated, and its hard to see a way back for them to be considered elegant but not OTT while these type of people above wear them.

Gilgamesh2003 · 2012-04-05 07:55:37

Here is an example of a hat that is in harmony with the rest of the outfit and doesn't scream out its hat-ness:

The rest of the outfit is, of course, loud and awful, and the overall effect is that of a man who should not be left unattended around children or easily damaged house plants, but the hat doesn't leap out and draw the eye.

Actually, looking again, I think if that bloke shaved his beard and threw away the "jaunty" tie bar and pocket handkerchief then he would be essentially OK (I suppose the tie is pretty bad as well). It would be interesting to see what the hat would look like in that context.

On the other end of the spectrum we have this pantload, whose blog post I linked a while ago in the Inane Post thread:

His ilk have pretty much ruined hats for North America.

fxh, as always I agree with everything you say - I don't think I have ever seen a really nice-looking bow tie in the wild. It will be interesting to see what the very young be-hatted Australians do with hats in general.

Other red flags:

- Hipster beards. I have nothing against beards in general, but I also have never had the slightest trouble distinguishing a beard from a hipster beard. I see the hipster beard at the center of a few rather unfortunate currents in our post-postmodern episteme. It seems to combine a kind of childishness (not wanting to look responsible or taxpayer-like), a desire to be unique in a conformist way, and a sense of social entitlement, as in, even though I am wearing a ridiculous beard you must take me seriously.

Last edited by Gilgamesh2003 (2012-04-05 08:00:47)

Big Tony · 2012-04-05 08:57:11

You've just earned points for posting the hot asian chicks, also extra points for using the word epistemology on a clothing forum.

Question: when will the British ever learn that spread collars do not look good with everything, or on everyone?

Ed13 · 2012-04-06 06:55:21

I will admit to be a bow tie and hat wearer. I like the function of both.

Bow ties are good when a regular long tie could get in the way. Going out for dinner or when the kids are with me, it is one less thing to worry about. I don't wear them often but they have their place.

Most days I wear a hat. I have a collection of fedoras, panamas and flat caps. They keep the sun off me all year and keep my head warm in the winter. Brimmed hats can be a pain dealing with the car or finding a place to put it indoors when in public. This is usually where flat caps come in. They aren't as good in the sun but can be stuffed in your pocket when need be.

The problem with many hat wearers is they are trying to pretend they are something they are not. I don't want to be Indiana Jones or a 30's era gangster. When the proper wearing of pith helmets comes up you know they have completely lost touch with reality. These people should spend more time trying to accomplish something in their own lives and learn to be comfortable with who they are.

My red flag item is a large watch. No offence to anyone visually challenged since you are the only ones who should be wearing these boat anchors on your wrist. When the lugs are wider than your wrist the watch is to big for you. It is no different than buying a suit a couple of sizes too big.

While on watches I will also add sport watches with a suit. Are you going diving or to the office? People should make up their mind. Sport watches were the original boat anchors since they started out larger than other watches for a purpose and seemed to be latched onto by the look at me crowd. The Alpha males need to separate themselves even further from the masses so theirs are usually encrusted in diamonds.

End of rant.

fxh · 2012-04-06 07:18:34

Goodyear welt wrote:
Outside of a flat cap, paperboy type of hat. Hats suck. The problem is they're either wore by Russell Brand types or men that dress like race horse trainers. Its not a good image to have. Very dated, and its hard to see a way back for them to be considered elegant but not OTT while these type of people above wear them.

You know I don't think I've ever seen flat cap here irl. Would look like a costume.

Film Noir Buff · 2012-04-06 08:21:06

fxh wrote:
Goodyear welt wrote:
Outside of a flat cap, paperboy type of hat. Hats suck. The problem is they're either wore by Russell Brand types or men that dress like race horse trainers. Its not a good image to have. Very dated, and its hard to see a way back for them to be considered elegant but not OTT while these type of people above wear them.
You know I don't think I've ever seen flat cap here irl. Would look like a costume.

I considered getting a matching one made with a couple of my tweed jackets and then realized I was kidding myself.

Hats generally look like costume here too. Functional hats without brims like beanies were saved by the hip hop and grunge looks. I see a lot of jacket wearing men in the city with baseball caps on which looks bad and, ironically, underscores their baldness. Interesting because I am so accustomed to seeing even very young men with shaved heads. There are also a lot of older guys who are proud of dressing in the gardening look of khakis, nylon jacket and button down or lumber jack shirt. It could be that people discriminate against themselves.

Big Tony · 2012-04-06 09:13:52

fxh wrote:
Goodyear welt wrote:
Outside of a flat cap, paperboy type of hat. Hats suck. The problem is they're either wore by Russell Brand types or men that dress like race horse trainers. Its not a good image to have. Very dated, and its hard to see a way back for them to be considered elegant but not OTT while these type of people above wear them.
You know I don't think I've ever seen flat cap here irl. Would look like a costume.

More proof that Austrailia is a weird place. I can't think of a more anonymous and socially ignored type of hat than a flat cap (tweed, not the Kangol black man with an attitude flat cap).

Big Tony · 2012-04-06 09:17:10

I think these two photos show how age matters. I think the old timer looks charming, but the bearded stereo salesman doesn't. I propose that no man under the age of retirement should be allowed to wear red or faded red pants, but of course I am in no position to enforce that (yet).

Junior Astaire · 2012-04-06 10:34:06

Big Tony wrote:
I think these two photos show how age matters. I think the old timer looks charming, but the bearded stereo salesman doesn't. I propose that no man under the age of retirement should be allowed to wear red or faded red pants, but of course I am in no position to enforce that (yet).

http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … g_0357.jpg http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … 3_0002.jpg

The older gentleman is better built and better looking. The bearded gentleman has wide hips which are not a good platform for Nantucket red pants. Also the older man looks American, the younger one looks like an Austrian psychiatrist from about 1900.

fxh · 2012-04-06 10:42:38

Big Tony wrote:
I think these two photos show how age matters. I think the old timer looks charming, but the bearded stereo salesman doesn't. I propose that no man under the age of retirement should be allowed to wear red or faded red pants, but of course I am in no position to enforce that (yet).

http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … g_0357.jpg http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … 3_0002.jpg

oh well - I've only got 3 pairs - so I guess I'm safe.

Film Noir Buff · 2012-04-06 10:49:40

fxh wrote:
Big Tony wrote:
I think these two photos show how age matters. I think the old timer looks charming, but the bearded stereo salesman doesn't. I propose that no man under the age of retirement should be allowed to wear red or faded red pants, but of course I am in no position to enforce that (yet).

http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … g_0357.jpg http://forums.filmnoirbuff.com/uploads/ … 3_0002.jpg
oh well - I've only got 3 pairs - so I guess I'm safe.

I missed this winter but I have a wine colored and a fire engine red length of moleskin which I will have made up for next winter.

g- · 2012-04-06 20:47:39

Gilgamesh2003 wrote:
On a personal note I have a deeply repressed desire to wear a Panama hat (not in the "optimo" style of the above example); if I do so you may be assured that I will not post a picture of it on the internet.

I appreciate this sentiment, Gil I started wearing hats when I got sunburn on my head--1996. I hated that day. I do not wear baseball caps unless I am running outsie in the rain. I wear proper hats and if I look like a nerd than so be it. After spending 24hrs in Boston during the Anime convention (no I was not an attendee) I do not believe that even costumes are costumey.

Last edited by g- (2012-04-06 20:48:04)

Gilgamesh2003 · 2012-04-07 08:50:04

These are the only good non-celebrity Panama hat pictures I could find easily through Google:

This guy also looks natural in his - this may be because of the setting:

This guy less so -

There are lots of flat cap pictures out there -

Not all completely bad. There seems to be a facial hair and glasses theme going as well - I just picked these off the first page of Google image search, so they represent a scientifically perfect sample of the hat-wearing population.

So far here is our red flag list:

- Hats (apparently the main or most obvious red flag)
- Bow ties
- No socks
- Red pants
- Pocket squares
- Huge watches
- Red pants

When I was in college the popped collar was a red flag, but now it seems like a cute remnant of the optimism of the early 2000s. Might I propose:

- Ugly dress shoe colors. I have rarely seen these in the wild, but of course you see them tediously frequently on the internet, more specifically on Styleforum, and more specifically than that on Spoo. To my eye the weirdly non-standard shoe color looks to be the product of a bored and stifled mind, like a dog who chews the furniture because he has been left alone all day. Surely one could imagine a particularly beautiful (or at least aesthetically pleasing) way to wear black shoes before one needs to purchase green shoes, or red ones?

Last edited by Gilgamesh2003 (2012-04-07 08:51:28)

Film Noir Buff · 2012-04-07 09:22:51

^ Red pants are on the list twice!

Actually, I have a pair of royal blue khakis that get more looks than the red ones do. You wouldn't think that would be.

annadale · 2012-04-07 09:36:08

I would tend to agree with the list from Gilgamesh, adding pointed and square-toed shoes, but pocket squares? I have always used them, my father did as well- in fact the bulk of my small collection are inherited from him. He was a member of his local golf club and a practicing freemason so that may account for it. Just to add though, I do not feel properly dressed without one. I have tried but it just does not feel right.

Gilgamesh2003 · 2012-04-07 09:47:25

Everything on the list can be worn well, of course. Pocket squares per se are not a red flag, but ugly or weirdly obtrusive ones are. Insouciant or beautiful pocket handkerchiefs in tune with the rest of the outfit are beyond criticism.

Pocket squares, like hats, seem to be getting way more popular. This means that many men with no sense of style are starting to use them, often folded into fussy geometric shapes. This is a major red flag.

I suggest that red flag clothing demonstrates a lack of context - it is in harmony neither with the rest of the clothes or with the wearer's milieu. Thus, the 30 year old with the bright red pants and the schlubby jacket in the stereo store looks odd; the older man wearing the same pants at a garden party looks great.

Film Noir Buff · 2012-04-07 09:59:00

Gilgamesh2003 wrote:
Everything on the list can be worn well, of course. Pocket squares per se are not a red flag, but ugly or weirdly obtrusive ones are. Insouciant or beautiful pocket handkerchiefs in tune with the rest of the outfit are beyond criticism.

Pocket squares, like hats, seem to be getting way more popular. This means that many men with no sense of style are starting to use them, often folded into fussy geometric shapes. This is a major red flag.

I suggest that red flag clothing demonstrates a lack of context - it is in harmony neither with the rest of the clothes or with the wearer's milieu. Thus, the 30 year old with the bright red pants and the schlubby jacket in the stereo store looks odd; the older man wearing the same pants at a garden party looks great.

Red pants are a bit addictive. I am getting a pair of scarlet ones made up. It's amazing how a look can develop. Just a few years ago, wearing red pants would have been unthinkable partly because the cotton gaberdine was not as available and partly because color for mens casual clothing was suppressed for a long time. Red pants in shades more pinky or bricky were a preppy staple, got added lift from disco and hippie fashion and then disappeared until first the Italians and now the English adopted them. At some point it is conceivable that they will disappear over night. I do my own thing but I do also find myself influenced by trends which I try to then take and start doing whatever I want all over again. I suppose it helps keep it all me that my tailor makes all my trousers and shorts.

Don't worry about my feelings, let 'er rip.

Goodyear welt · 2012-04-07 11:51:41

This looks fantastic, a hat that doesn't make he wearer look like a cock. I think.

Gilgamesh2003 · 2012-04-07 12:11:22

I like the hat and I agree that it is in harmony with the rest of the outfit, but the outfit itself is confused and borders on costume. One gets the idea that the wearer wanted to look like a postcard from another, more genteel time, but he has achieved the effect by going sepia. This is an outfit that has few individual red flag components, but seems like a red flag as a whole; a useful red flag test is, would you want to have a conversation with this person, or would you assume unbearable self-absorption?

All the patterns long for boldness but the colors remain so muted that he looks anxious not to offend rather than insouciant. At least everything seems to fit quite nicely. The tie is ghastly - knit ties might also qualify as a red flag. Perhaps with a different shirt and tie this could do very well. Really it's not a bad outfit by global standards, and if the wearer is charming and at ease in person I'm sure it would look fine. If he's attending some kind of bohemian function or an antique British car show then he would look right at home. Otherwise the crochet driving gloves are an especially affected touch.

Buffy, I would love to hear more about your royal blue khakis - I know this color is strictly forbidden by the iGents (and Manton in particular, I think), but I have often wondered what non-insane people think of it.

formby · 2012-04-07 12:26:47

Goodyear welt wrote:
This looks fantastic, a hat that doesn't make he wearer look like a cock. I think.

http://forthediscerningfew.files.wordpr … .jpg?w=490

One wonders where he's parked the Bentley Blower.

Film Noir Buff · 2012-04-07 12:36:20

Gilgamesh2003 wrote:
I like the hat and I agree that it is in harmony with the rest of the outfit, but the outfit itself is confused and borders on costume. One gets the idea that the wearer wanted to look like a postcard from another, more genteel time, but he has achieved the effect by going sepia. This is an outfit that has few individual red flag components, but seems like a red flag as a whole; a useful red flag test is, would you want to have a conversation with this person, or would you assume unbearable self-absorption?

All the patterns long for boldness but the colors remain so muted that he looks anxious not to offend rather than insouciant. At least everything seems to fit quite nicely. The tie is ghastly - knit ties might also qualify as a red flag. Perhaps with a different shirt and tie this could do very well. Really it's not a bad outfit by global standards, and if the wearer is charming and at ease in person I'm sure it would look fine. If he's attending some kind of bohemian function or an antique British car show then he would look right at home. Otherwise the crochet driving gloves are an especially affected touch.

Buffy, I would love to hear more about your royal blue khakis - I know this color is strictly forbidden by the iGents (and Manton in particular, I think), but I have often wondered what non-insane people think of it.

Is it anti-iGent? I like it better already.

The color was in the Harrisons mersolair book 26748. I had a pair of trousers and shorts made from it. I wouldve had a jacket made from it too but I already have a wool jacket in roughly that shade (Which I will wear with bright red pants). It reminded me of Marina days during the 1980s. I did grow up rather preppy and it struck me as something to wear with a navy blue blazer and a needlepoint belt. The shorts get nary a look but the pants with the blazer do get stares. I think the color is well done and I wear the pants with short sleeved shirts too. The color aside, I may not have opted to do it but for the quality of harrisons cotton gabardine which has a color intensity and richness akin to wool. I could walk into a good bar/restaurant in NYC and feel well dressed.

I am not so sure I am not crazy, I got a French cuff shirt made from union jack fabric, a short sleeved one and I am torn between what to do with the remainder material; short, trousers or sports coat!

I think I have those same gloves. Dents?

I also have a similar cashmere jacket to that chappie in a dark brown cashmere with tan windowpane (winter) and a silk/cashmere jacket in a camel with cream windowpane (summer). They both have boring flap hip and welt chest pockets. It is interesting how people will approach a look. I would never wear tonally harmonious items with either jacket, except for a tan flannel trouser I occasionally wear with the darker jacket. I might wear a white shirt with the summer jacket but otherwise, I assail the jackets with color in shirts and ties, even trousers. I might even wear my red trousers with the summer jacket with a strong blue shirt, maybe even a check, and one of those light brown Duchamp ties I find myself stuck with. Oh, and black and white suede shoes.

#1 2012-04-04 06:51:34

Red Flag clothing

#2 2012-04-04 10:38:27

Re: Red Flag clothing

#3 2012-04-04 10:49:37

Re: Red Flag clothing

gil opined wrote:

#4 2012-04-04 12:14:48

Re: Red Flag clothing

fxh wrote:

#5 2012-04-05 00:28:43

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#6 2012-04-05 07:55:37

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#7 2012-04-05 08:57:11

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#8 2012-04-06 06:55:21

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#9 2012-04-06 07:18:34

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Goodyear welt wrote:

#10 2012-04-06 08:21:06

Re: Red Flag clothing

fxh wrote:

Goodyear welt wrote:

#11 2012-04-06 09:13:52

Re: Red Flag clothing

fxh wrote:

Goodyear welt wrote:

#12 2012-04-06 09:17:10

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#13 2012-04-06 10:34:06

Re: Red Flag clothing

Big Tony wrote:

#14 2012-04-06 10:42:38

Re: Red Flag clothing

Big Tony wrote:

#15 2012-04-06 10:49:40

Re: Red Flag clothing

fxh wrote:

Big Tony wrote:

#16 2012-04-06 20:47:39

Re: Red Flag clothing

Gilgamesh2003 wrote:

#17 2012-04-07 08:50:04

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#18 2012-04-07 09:22:51

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#19 2012-04-07 09:36:08

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#20 2012-04-07 09:47:25

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#21 2012-04-07 09:59:00

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Gilgamesh2003 wrote:

#22 2012-04-07 11:51:41

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#23 2012-04-07 12:11:22

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#24 2012-04-07 12:26:47

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Goodyear welt wrote:

#25 2012-04-07 12:36:20

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Gilgamesh2003 wrote:

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