Altho' Simons mentioned Austins, I wonder how much of his decision to open his own shop was influenced by working for Austins. After all it had been trading successfully for a number of years before The Ivy Shop opened and demonstrated that there was a demand for Ivy League clothing, at least in London. I started going there in 1961 and felt no need to traipse out to Richmond when I could get what I wanted in the West End.
I think that Austins has been somewhat left out of the history of the style in this country when it should be hailed as being important for leading the way, including opening the door for John Simons. This is not to denigrate his role or importance, just setting the record straight.
By the way, I thought Elms was dreadful as an interviewer. Interrupting, going off at tangents, bigging up his own role, laughing uproariously at his own jokes. All the things an interviewer should not do.
As a ps, I thought Simons came across very well. I've always perceived him as a rather pushy salesman on the odd occasions I've been in the shops but I warmed to him, particularly given the previous paragraph.
Good point re: Austins AJ...
And the other place (whose name I forget) that did the more loop collar stuff... both sound mucho fantastico...
Davids in Charing Cross Road, just a few doors up from Dobell's.
The first place in London, I believe, to sell Levis as they were then. Not 501s or any other number, just shrink to fit Levis
^ GW I think you underestimate the influence of American films, TV, books and music on European popular culture. I grew up on a diet of US made TV shows, The Streets of San Francisco, Happy Days etc and so did most of Europe. Even to this day the domestic TV output of many Euro countries is minimal, or unbelievably bad, and much of the scheduling is taken up with dubbed US shows. Obviously the content has changed since the ivy-golden era of the shows I mention but the influence goes on. Why does the French student in his chinos, loafers and shetland crew neck feel good in that outfit? It's a look that gets handed down and ties in with images we all have in our sub conscious, its influence waxes and wanes and gets mixed up with local stuff from that country. The US influence in French popular culture is really strong, the government there have even talked about banning American phrases from their language language. You can go shopping in France and put together a decent ivy inspired out fit from French labels. As you say, only a tiny percentage of even the well dressed population would recognise such a look as 'ivy', but I'm sure if they could be bothered to sit and think about it they would recognise it as American influenced or even 'preppy' if they had heard of such a term.
"but I'm sure if they could be bothered to sit and think about it they would recognise it as American influenced or even 'preppy' if they had heard of such a term."
They can't. Theres no point.
Just like Americans can't be asred to wonder where loafers come from in the first place. There comes a cut off point for these things and I think the saying America's influence on dress cut off point is about 1965, roughly. It didn't have a more popular or as popular influence on mods as the Italian fashion of the day, not matter how much some people might like to think otherwise. And for sure it didn't hold as much sway in the world of fashion as Swinging London. Just because its a niche for a few doesn't mean it was super popular in general and selling using Amercian marketing to sell European garments back to Europeans doesn't mean they wouldn't have wore them anyway. Your reading to much into a small niche market. Mainly I suspect because your interested only in Ivy and only read historical fashion articles about that subject.
Doesn't surprise me your confused by that statement WM. Not one bit.
I like Elms (and his BBC show) although I can see how his quirks rub people up the wrong way. His outfit in the video was dreadful though - black shoes with ?chinos - especially for someone who prides himself on his appearance and who had presumably made a special effort, as not only was he doing an interview about clothes but also being filmed.
Last edited by Worried Man (2015-04-23 07:30:17)
For me, Ivy is essentially a good old classic all-American look, regardless of the fact that I know about the trans-Atlantic back and forth as it's been rehashed on here endlessly over the years, and whether or not anyone else in the world recognizes it as such. However, I'm not under any delusion that Ivy holds any weight in the collective style consciousness of people in the U.S. or elsewhere for that matter, outside of us obsessives. If I saw the guy in Italy dressed in head-to-toe "Ivy" - natural shoulder sack, flat front trousers, button-down, loafers, etc. - I wouldn't immediately assume that he has any knowledge of the fact that he's essentially wearing what we term "Ivy" style.
But Woof...Its not an influence any more, its roots are forgotten. Maine is more likely to be thought of as a sailing set type brand than Ivy by most. Dessies to most men my age would be thought of as the icon Mod shoe rather than Ivy. Your forgetting that most people have never heard of Ivy. RLP shirts are thought of as an 80s casuals shirt more than prep. I know what your saying because I'm into clobber but at some stage you have to say, that was then, this is now. Once clothes cross broaders they lose any national status. You can't say "see those Boss Chino's?, if we hadn't had Ivy style in 1958 they wouldn't be in this shop". You might have got away with saying that in 1970 but its 2015 me olde. The world has moved on, get with it or risk ending up like a throw back who can only find sympathizers who look like period film extras that spend their lives online talking to each other and shunning the modern sartorial world...oh, hang on.
Soggs - Ive completely lost the point to all this...are you saying wear what you like because now things are so removed from their source that they are universal..or are you saying its stupid to limit yourself to a style of old clothes because you are blinkering yourself to perfectly good new ones?
Last edited by Bop (2015-04-23 11:34:38)
Maybe Soggs is just stirring the pot. He's saying we're a forum comprised of a few sad throw backs that are hung up on Ivy. As if!! The internet is a big place. It's a shame that those of us that choose to live in our parents' basements and have zero desire to get real jobs and interact in the real can't get on here and spend all of our time talking about outdated men's clothing.
Im pretty sure he is trying to make a broader and more substantial point if he's not then well its just a waste of time really...like any of us need to be reminded we're sad
The broader point being that Ivy is just this idea that only retains salience amongst a very concentrated gaggle of geeks. And while being outdated stylistically, we also tend to overstate it as a quintessentially American cultural export. I mean, whatever. I'm fine with all that.