Hi Jake,

Apology accepted. Thanks a lot. You make some very kind remarks which I really appreciate.

I am very happy to agree to disagree on the definition of the word ‘bespoke’. Indeed, if you search the annals of this forum and others like it you will find enough reading material on this subject alone to last a lifetime. For example, I read a very interesting post recently written by another Savile Row tailor who claimed that since Gieves and Hawkes sell predominantly off-the-peg they should not be permitted to be members of Savile Row Bespoke - the association that was in fact founded by them! Now that’s controversial!

There are a couple of points you make, however, on which I would like to retort.

1.    “I think rdw34uk probably hits a few of the key points in his post, much better than I did”

I have responded to rdw34uk and I encourage you to read it. In short, he came to us over 3 years ago, and he did not spend £499. Both the suit and the service he describes are from a bygone era, and are not relevant to the core of this debate, namely

“I am trying to encourage a debate around how whether it is possible to tailor a decent bespoke suit for £499. “

It may seem like a small point, but it’s absolutely crucial since if either you or he came to me tomorrow and spent £499 you would get everything you’re after – namely: all the options you could possibly want, a fully floating canvass, high end cloths, the baste fitting (which is indeed sent back to HK where it is completed by the tailor who worked on it originally) and advice from an expert in not just tailoring, but also in skin tone, cloth and all the latest trends.

2.    “having experienced ASuitThatFits, which I suspect does things very similarly to you, I like them for what they are, but I also know that they are a million miles from being bespoke. The only difference is that, as far as I can see, they never claim to be.”

I just googled one of their adverts:

“Quality Bespoke Suits From £150 Book An Appointment Now, Visit Us!”

I assure you we are far closer to the Savile Row experience (and suit quality) than we are to A Suit That Fits!

I really hope I get the opportunity to pleasantly surprise you in the New Year. Have a great Christmas, and thanks for your time.

Best wishes,

Adam

Very poor response Bishop.

Adam painstakingly responds to your attempts to defrock him and you provide a very weak reply in turn.

Adam 10, Bishop of Briggs 0 so far, old chap, IMHO.

Last edited by Bishop of Briggs (2009-12-22 07:34:31)

King & Allen premises and the new dentist nearby have spruced up a tired part of Surbiton.

They should have put a dance hall above the shop like the old Burton's though.

Right, I guess an introduction is first in order, and you'll see why I've posted in this particular thread soon enough.  It's a long read, unfortunately, but there you go then.  I'm giving you every detail so you can give my words whatever meaning you want while knowiing the whole story.

I'm not a resident of the UK.  I live quite nearby, but in a country where the supply of classic menswear is woefully weak.  I'm in my mid twenties and a recently graduated lawyer.  I've had some suits I've discarded (recycled, I believe, is the term) due to being crap, and four I'm currently using.  The first one is the only one I bought during my studies that I'm still using.  It's a Hugo Boss, very basic, and cost me 600€.  So that's probably about 500 quid or 750 bucks.  Yeah, I know, nice one.  Anyway, that's about it as far as RTW goes over here.  It's not like I wanted to get that, it was essentially the only option available in that price range - and that's also considered the minimum acceptable level for a lawyer over here.  The next steps in the RTW ladder cost two or three times that, and with quality not matching the price, with names like Armani etc.  The RTW options usually considered of high quality can't even be obtained here - Brioni, Kiton, RLPL, Oxxford etc.  Fully bespoke suits in excellent quality are available, but the prices (seriously) match (and sometimes exceed) Savile Row prices (and I can't say anything about the quality, never having tried them), so I've obviously not gone there.  So what's one to do?

There exists, of course, the MTM approach.  And, naturally, the next suit - the first one after graduation - I got was a MTM thing.  It's from a tailor whom I like for his sheer enthusiasm in suits, but whose taste and "house style" I don't necessarily adhere to 100%.  (A bit too fashion forward, if I'm honest.)  I say house style because even though he mostly does MTM, he is a properly trained tailor and will do (and does) bespoke as well.  Anyway, this effort came from a factory called Odermark in Germany.  It's in quite a lovely H&S cloth as well.  The downside is that even with the good cloth and great attention to detail from the tailor, the original craftmanship from the factory isn't up to par.  It's fused, has low armholes, a keyhole lapel, and I dislike the shoulder construction.  There's only so much he could do with the available "nearest to fitting well" pattern.  So the fit isn't perfect as the original pattern just all too obviously isn't made for me.  In essence, it's not that much above the Boss suit, except that it's altered to fit me and is of a really nice fabric.  Oh yeah, then there's the issue of the price as well.  It cost me no less than 1400 €, whatever that translates into - over 1000£ and closer to 2000$, probably.  The best part was that I got it with a 20% discount, so the real price would've been 1700€, which is in excess of 2000 dollars and probably around 1300 quid.  Value for money? 

So I tried that, and went to another MTM supplier.  Didn't have the attention to detail as the previous one, but then again, not as fashion forward either, and slightly cheaper.  I think the end result is better due to several reasons.  The previous guy went for rather a fitted jacket, which just doesn't work with those armholes.  As this is a bit more relaxed, it works better.  Anyway, the fabric I got was a Vitale Barberis Canonico fairly basic thing, nice enough but nothing fancy.  The factory which made the suit: the very same Odermark, nothing to write home about.  The end result: 900 €.  So what's a guy to do?

I had been wrecking my head with this.  I then arranged a trip to the UK with some friends, and it came over me that I could get something while there.  I was first thinking of a Chester Barrie, only to find out about their "troubles", and didn't really know what to do.  I realized there are many better value/money MTM and even bespoke manufacturers, but on the other hand, I didn't know what to do about the whole thing as I didn't want to be flying to and fro the UK, so I decided against the whole thing.  I started looking at the lower end of bespoke, thinking I could get something cheap I could get away with, without doing any fittings.  Just ordering a suit perfectly blind.  I started with the usual suspects also mentioned here, until, eventually, I found K&A.  For some reason, a hunch or whatever, it seemed to me like it was a step up from some of the muck going about there, and I gave them a call.  Then I sent some e-mails.  Finally I decided it looked like I could give it a go.  They said they always suggested having fittings, but for foreign customers they could just do the whole suit, send it over, and I could have any alterations by sending it back, having them done locally, or by visiting them again whenever I happened to be there.  I wasn't interested in getting the "man-made fabrics", naturally, but I didn't want to go all the way to the Dormeuil cloths (suits costing 799-999£), as I had no guarantees I'd be happy with the end product.   I thought I'd give it a go with the cheapest 100% wool they had.  So when I had my holiday in the UK, I hopped on a train to Surbiton and had them measure me up and send me the suit later.

When it arrived, I was excited (as one always is), but I had zero expectations.  I didn't think it would realistically be any good, but let's face it, I was fairly desperate after my experiences with local MTM.  I need suits on a daily basis and I don't know where I should get them, as my efforts have thus far proved unsatisfactory to some degree without fail.  It was a shocking surprise that it fit very well indeed.  I'm not saying it was 100% perfect out of the box, but it's easily wearable, and I've gotten compliments about it.  I've worn it probably a dozen times during the last months, but haven't dry-cleaned it.  As far as the jacket goes, some tweaks are needed.  The shoulders and chest are perfect imho.  There's good waist supression but it would still need taking in over the stomach.  And the sleeves were a bit long.  That I had done locally, an alterations tailor shortened them 1 cm.  The trousers are surprisingly good, and need no alterations whatsoever.  This was most surprising to me.  The fabric is nothing to write home about.  Not the nicest cloth in the world, though I really like the colour.  However, it's what I asked for, really.

So, what about my experience with them? 

The customer service has been extremely nice to me always.  They usually reply quite quickly, though sometimes they take a few days in replying to e-mails.  I find that usually if it seems I haven't received a reply in a day or two, I send another note after a few days and the reply is almost immediate.  When I was at Surbiton, the experience was nice.  The person attending me was young, didn't seem too experienced, but was extremely friendly and answered all my questions with ease.  Granted, I didn't ask for the stuff you guys are asking for, and I'm sure I could've caused some grief had I wanted.  I didn't want to push the guy or go out of my way to show that I've learned more on the internet than he knows, and luckily I was looking for a rather basic suit.  I didn't even try to go out of my way to be difficult, but I'm sure a really discerning customer could've easily stumped the poor guy, though I couldn't be sure, could I?  The most usual issues, such as working cuffs, pick stitching etc. he broached himself, so I'm sure he wasn't a complete novice.  He also told me all the details regarding the construction of the suit when asked, including the fact that it's made in HK etc.  It's not something they try to hide, I think they're proud of the fact that they offer what could be called honest entry level bespoke, and I feel they're confident their suits are worth the money.  And he also offered some tips and insight regarding some details and whanot.  So that all went well. 

What did not go well was the fact that my trousers came with belt loops and buttons for the braces, when I obviously didn't want both.  I want to only use braces.  In addition, they were tapered when I had wanted a classic cut.  So I contacted them and they apologized and said I could send them back (at their expense) and they'd correct them.  In the end I decided to get a second pair of trousers without the belt loops.  I was half expecting that they'd offer the second trousers free of charge.  Instead, I paid half the price and they paid for shipping.  I was fine with that as I could have sent the trousers back as well. So now I have a pair of tapered (not slim, I'm too tall for that) trousers to use with a belt if I'm in the mood for something more casual, like tan shoes, or braces and more classic trousers for when I'm in the need of something more official.  I'm rather happy with how the whole thing panned out, though it's not something I planned.  I've even been thinking that from now on, I need to get one pair with belt loops and one pair with brace buttons if the fabric allows for both a more relaxed and more austere look.  However, the reason I wanted a second pair of trousers was not just this.  I wanted to have a second trial, to see if the fit / quality remains the same.  The second trousers also came out surprisingly accurate, I can discern of no difference in the fit, other than the slight taper.  Oh, and I also got some cloth samples from their top cloths (Dormeuil and John Foster, apparently, according to the note) in case I want a second suit.


So what's my overall impression?

Well, I'm more than happy.  I wasn't expecting much, maybe just something at par with my Boss suit - something which could be altered to look passable.  Turns out it's a lot better than I could've hoped for.  The pattern is very obviously made for me, as the shape is just perfect.  Even though the torso of the suit needs some tweaking (I'll have to get it done at some point), the shape is so 'me', that it looks a lot better imho than the ones which have been altered to fit me.  For the price I paid (499£) I couldn't be happier.  I'll get another trial suit at some point with one of their finer fabrics instead of getting local MTM suits.  I think only the second jacket will really tell me how good this place really is.  I'll certainly have to try to give some directions as to how the first suit would need amending in hopes of getting the second jacket even more accurate. 

Does it compete with Savile Row?  Well, never having owned a Savile Row suit I couldn't say, but good God I hope not.  It would be an outrage on so many levels.  I had always assumed it would be fused, but inspired by the comments of the owner in this very thread I went to do the old test, and I do believe it's fully canvassed.  Is everything hand sewn?  I'm not enough of an expert to really tell, but at that price - the price of a Boss OTR suit, from my perspective - who really gives a damn?  It's canvassed at a ridiculously low price, which in and of itself is plenty.  If and when I'll upgrade to high-end bespoke stuff, I'll worry about that.  When I'm paying less than I would for what's considered the lowest acceptable suit, a Boss suit, and half of a local MTM suit, and am getting a far superior fit in every conceivable way, I'm more than happy with what I'm getting.  Value for money, it definitely has.

Can I recommend it?  Yes.  I recommend it without hesitation to everyone who realizes what they're getting.  Yes, I classify it as bespoke, as the fit of my suit obviously tells me the pattern is individually made for me, unlike my MTM suits.  But also keep in mind, it is entry level bespoke.  I think it's a brilliant product for what it is, and don't expect anything more than that.  But at the same time, I don't label it as garbage.   For what it is, it's a brilliant suit.  In addition, bear in mind that I had no fittings and no alterations.

So obviously I had a good experience with them late last year when I got the suit (received it in November, I believe).  That's all I can speak for.  If you're in the need for a suit in the price range of 500-1000£, it may be worth thinking about.  There may be better for the price, there's bound to be a lot worse.  And your experience may not be as good as mine, who's to say.  All I'm saying is that my experience was very positive, with the reservations stated above.

Last edited by Don Juan (2010-01-15 09:48:12)

It's frank, not dense, but I can see how one could fail to see the difference.

Ok, I'll give you dense as well.

Haha, I was expecting that.... In fact, all of that.

First question is ridiculous.  I'm fairly sure I'm not the advertisement they need.

Second comment is true to an extent, but a) I hardly see how that affects my comments in any way, and b) I don't really see how this is a question of Cheshire Bespoke or Chester Barrie or whatever they are presently called as I can't really remember.

As for the last statement, I'm sure that's true, as I stated before.  However, as you have not tried them, I can't see how you can be.  The closer to 1000£ you get, the truer that statement becomes, I believe.  For the 499 I spent, the value I received was definitely good, and better than what I'd paid previously.  The very reason for the length of my post was that you'd possibly understand the reason why I went that route, and why I'm happy with the end result.  The one thing I failed to mention is that my body shape is unusual or difficult in that I find it fairly impossible to get suitable clothes off the peg.  No, I'm not extremely skinny, nor extremely fat.  However, OTR is not made for me, trust me.

I was trying to give a sort of "you read this and decide for yourself" account of my entire story with the firm, but I see that's been interpreted as some sort of fan-boyism.  Couldn't really care less, but there you go then.

I'd say your post pretty much sums up my sentiment, which I doubt came through very well (if at all) in that behemoth of a post above.  Our perspective simply differs.  For a working suit what they offer at circa 500£ is very good.  The more elaborate your wishes and the more money you start dishing out, the less likely it is to live up to the price.  The workmanship seems at par with the quality of their lower end wools.  For the money, the 500£ suit I have is excellent.  Your mistake was going in expecting something their product simply is not.  I was expecting absolutely nothing so I ended up being positively surprised.

I'm thinking of going for another working suit in one of their nicer fabrics simply because travelling to get measured by a different tailor is not an option right now.  However, things have been fairly quiet from my contact lately.  I didn't like the fabrics they sent me so I've sent pictures of examples I like to see if they stock something appropriate.  I got a reply stating that they're looking into it but haven't heard from them for the past two weeks or so.  Fairly disappointed there.

Just one more thing.  I think it's not entirely fair to rag on them for selling the product they want to sell.  A&S, Huntsman, Tom Mahon, Rubinacci etc. etc. all sell the product they want FWIW.  I don't think it's fair to call K&A product's limitations a house style, nor to compare them to the abovementioned tailors, but I don't think your assesment of the situation and their willingness to sell the product that they "specialize in" is entirely fair either.  I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

Like I said, our perspective differs.  You obviously expected to get nearly Savile Row stuff with two pairs of trousers for 400£, I expected just something a notch above Hugo Boss for 500£.  At 500ish their quality is competitive, this I will definitely stand by.  The closer to 1000£ you get, the more alternatives you have, and those are, FWIW, superior in more ways than one.  However, when talking about the range of 500-1000, you seem to be concentrating more on the 850-1000£ represented by the alternatives you listed, while I'm really more about the 500-600£ range.  If I had the option of doing the proper bespoke experience at one of the many London-based tailoring houses, I'd be willing to pay 1000£ and easily upwards of that.  As I don't have that option, I am not willing to pay even 1000 quid for a bespoke number when I can't do multiple (or, indeed, any) fittings.  500 I was willing to pay, as it couldn't possibly have been much worse than an OTR Boss number.  That's why K&A suits me at the moment, and why it doesn't you.  As far as the product itself goes, I doubt we'd find many issues we actually differ on, we just view them from completely different standpoints.  Polar opposites.

I do wish I could fly to the UK (or indeed any other country with half-decent tailoring around 1000-1500£) 3-4 times to get a proper suit, but it just costs too much.  Paying another 1000£ for flights is not an option.  I would not be buying suits at K&A if I had the chance of doing a proper English bespoke suit, trust me.

As a sidenote, it seems that you equate a tailoring background to quality suits, and dismiss K&A for lack thereof.  Granted, you have had a bad experience and obviously that will also play a huge role.  But more importantly, the whole meeting the cutter thing is an obvious sign that you won't be happy with K&A, who in that respect (IMHO) fall somewhere between normal MTM, alternatives such as ModernTailor et al., and traditional bespoke.  To me they are closer to traditional bespoke, as in that issue to me it's about how it's cut and finished, and absolutely nothing else.  It's not about whether or not they'll do anything you like - a lot of tailors won't - and saying that if Sims can do it, so should they, has no bearing on this issue.  And it's not about where it's done, nor even the experience.  However, it's good to know what you are getting, and the "Savile Row experience", as Mr. King calls it, you are not, despite his effort to provide something similar.

As a separate question, it intrigues me that you're obviously very happy with your Sims suit, yet you still went for Graham Browne as well.  I probably would've stuck with them, and am interested in knowing why you didn't.