Thing is...

Those in the South who dressed Trad did actually dress Trad back in the day.
Princeton & all that? The Southern Gentleman, etc?

What we are now getting on the MBs is (again!) something brand new -

I've tried to draw out people to discuss 'Southern Trad' & its European flavour (ie, the clothes aren't classic American), but no dice. Folks are wise to my sneaky ways...

Southern Trad is/was North-Eastern Trad just adjusted a little for the warmer weather. They still wore the undarted natural-shoulder down there with plain front pants.
Why would Southern American Trad not be American Trad? Why would those Princeton grads go back home all dressed up in Euro-esq style?
(I'm playing along with the social class thing here just to try to be as clear as I can be).

New rule on the MBs - When somebody says something we all ask for proof & we debate and question all new information being thrown at us. Otherwise we end up with more 'Because I say so' rules!

Why is it cynical to merely ask 'What is that based on?'

???????????

I've just waded through the Southern Trad on AAAT & Mr. Longwing is once more spot-on.
Again class is being discussed & not clothes.
'Southern Trad' is being taken to mean the uniform of the neo-conservative South in the way that 'Trad' came to mean a neo-conservative uniform elsewhere.
We really need to drop the 'meanings' of our clothes here as we are now dicussing the meanings & not the clothes.

'Trad' started as a wardrobe. Then we got stuck into meanings. Now the meanings are so important to some that anybody with neo-conservative tastes is in the 'Trad' club no matter what they wear and their darted, pleated, stiff-shouldered clothes are considered 'Trad' just because their attitudes are 'Trad'.

Our shared taste in clothes should be uniting us. Instead the whole 'Trad lifestyle' and 'Trad attitudes' business is messing everything up.
Back to basics?
Trad reformation?

Let's talk about clothes?

I tried to play with the European links too & the different colour choices maybe linked to the climate...

Most of Trad is now a discussion of culture & not of clothing I think.

Fair enough.

I like clothes.

The style of 'The Establishment' may well be different in the South, but what is it that we are talking about on a clothing forum?
If it's a certain style of clothing then I can find links all over the place. If it's all about social class totems then I'm still interested but I'm only interested in 'Why?'

There must be some way of effecting some kind of concord with Mr. Harris...

I've been using him as an egg to be broken to get the omlette (sp?) I want around the net it's true.
He is a damn sight better than his imitators, and now that we have imitators of his imitators his presence to steer the good ship 'Trad' would be a great help.

Harris's problem is that he personified 'Trad'.
There was no 'Trad' before him.
So anybody questioning 'Trad' who has any taste for a fight is naturally going to use every weapon he has to hand. Which means that poor young H. gets it in the neck time & time again. A cheap shot but one that has impact with people. Work in advertising & media & you pick all this up...

I'm English... This is how we build empires! 

terry -

Edit: But that's no excuse. I owe Mr. H. in some way because I've used him so much. My door is always open, Harris.

Last edited by Terry Lean (2007-01-17 10:42:50)

True.

It was really when others called him the 'Godfather of Trad' that I settled on him as a punchbag. Most unfair.
No way of knowing how Harris felt about being called the 'Godfather'... Did it please him? Was it a mill-stone around his neck?
He never chose that title for himself.

And I totally agree that it is the Harris wannabes (and now wannnabe-wannabes!) that have led Trad to where it is on the MBs today.
To question the whole lot I just went for the root & picked on H. as an 'Aunt Sally' (An English fairground game where wooden balls are thrown at a dummy in order to knock it over).
Early Trad was certainly a team effort in a way... many contributed to the concept... poor young Harris gave it a name and so I gave poor young Harris the blame.

The information that Harris lifted from others is a side issue as are his factual mistakes. I've no problem with his evolution through different aspects of the style.

'Trad' I think is just an internet game that got out of hand.

Discussing the Ivy League style interests me far more.

Despite, well... me being me... A way forward is still what I'm looking for with Trad/Ivy League on the MBs...

... And I'm sure the way forward is a quick rewind.

Let's get back to 'The Harris Quote' & keep our focus on clothes when we're on the clothing MBs?

I'm not made of stone - You can call the style 'Trad' if you like (It HAS got a nice ring to it in the U.S.). And all past events can be water under the bridge too if you like.

We DO need to police ourselves a little better in the future though - and not in any way that's to do with Internet forum moderators -

The one question we should be concerned with is 'Is it Trad'?
Is it classic American tailoring?

Because that's what we all care about, right?

t.

This has devolved into another metadiscourse on the state of discussions of Trad on the MBs rather than a discussion of Trad.

If you want to talk about the clothes, please talk about the clothes.

I'm curious about what Southern Trad is and how it differs from the Northeastern Trad I grew up with. I picture gents in white suits and bolos sporting van dykes, vaguely reminiscent of Col. Sanders, sipping mint juleps with their Southern belles in the shade of spacious Greek Revival porches of mansions on vast plantations -- a stereotype to be sure.

What is it? What does it look like? Who wears it?

I know the history of Ben silver is that its original owner was a migrant from NYC.

I've misplaced by copy of that recent memoir, The Big House, or I'd copy out the paragraph about the tennis match.  Mid-way through the book.  The most perceptive and apt example of what the above is talking about.  Contrasting the two aesthetics.

It's a very good read and there are many many clothing-related observations in it.