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#1 2014-11-01 23:53:48

carpu65
Member
Posts: 1502

What went wrong?

In these days i'm looking the first and the second season of "Mad Men" in home video.
This show  had a deep influence on the man fashion in late 2000s.
"Mad Men"was preceded by others  movies set in early 60s,"Down with love" and "Catch me if you can",and was accompained by other TV series less forunate "Pan Am" and "The Playboy club".
In few words "Mad Men" is important part of a trend of rediscovery of the early 60s aesthetics and fashion.
So.what went wrong?
Why the 60s  silhouette in male suits was interpreted in a deformed way?
Why instead of the correct proportionst  have been made a sort of  parody, too much short,too much skinny?
Why simply has not returned to the correct  original 60s silhouette,as in other moments had returned very close to the original 30s style?

 

#2 2014-11-02 00:18:01

Chévere
Member
From: Baltimore
Posts: 856

Re: What went wrong?

Armani did a good return to the late fifties with his 80's suits, but every revisionist since has felt the need to add a "twist" lest they not be considered original geniuses.
But really, we all know their true inspiration is not Cary Grant, but Pee Wee Herman.


Cógelo suave, pero cógelo.

 

#3 2014-11-02 00:29:45

fxh
Big Down Under.
From: Melbourne
Posts: 6159

Re: What went wrong?

carpu - I did have some of the same thoughts a while back. I don't know but I suspect a few things: :
Despite its popularity Madmen wasn't watched by the Great Unwashed Plebians.
The big fashion chains couldn't see the $$ in it.
The big fashion chains already had their lines sorted 2 seasons ahead.
It was too tailored.
It was too hard to resolve the contradictions between looking smart, clean cut and smoking and old skool sexism.

Women didn't take it up either - maybe (idealised) shapes are too different today.

There are too many discrete niche markets these days to have a real trend.

No young fashion designers/patternmakers/buyers learn anything of history in mens fashion in particular.

No one wants to put any effort into detail.

I see lots of stuff advertised as "Madmen" but its usually some shit skinny black tie or a weird narrow jacket lapel of 1" looking like a shawl collar.

I dunno really - it is curious.

 

#4 2014-11-02 00:30:28

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

Do you know that every new generation of birds adds something to the song it was taught by it's parents to identify it as it's own call? Maybe we are no different?  Every generation gives its own spin. Personally I think that post modernist thought gave collapse to visual beauty in favour of reference and conceptualism.  Arguably ugly clothes reflect ugly minds. Modernism itself is said to abandon celestial beauty in order to dehumanise people. For us to become a machine or a system and lose the joy of religious redemption. 

For me personally I think art and design should make our hearts sing on reflecting the universal order. But in saying this I also am aware that difficult art reflects difficult environments or disturb thinking. This is no less meaning full. But does it only go to perpetuate a dissonance in ourselves and our societies or is it a release and cathartic experience?  To me fashion reflects all of this so when I see extremes or ugliness Inunderstand the true meaning of expression but it also brings a hint of misunderstanding and ignorance to a greater level of visual understanding in place you find novelty and concepts.

 

#5 2014-11-02 00:33:13

fxh
Big Down Under.
From: Melbourne
Posts: 6159

Re: What went wrong?

Universal order ??

More like

Chaos!

Random

 

#6 2014-11-02 00:40:36

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

No way, you can't have chaos without order..we are products of order..that's why we recognise beauty because order and balance are what allow us and maintain us. Chaos is a part of a universal system that is induces collapse in order to produce better systems and destroy unbalanced ones.

 

#7 2014-11-02 00:52:00

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

 

#8 2014-11-02 00:54:02

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

What happens in art and fashion is we firstly express, second to this the degree to which we are able to balance plasticity.

People seem to care less about the second one and more about the first..which is fine but extreme cultures give birth to extreme expression. Arguably the more extreme the choas...The more order is needed..maybe this is why facism gives rise in times of disorder?

 

#9 2014-11-02 01:03:13

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

Cause and reaction can be seen in the zoot suit, also a symbol of survival...times are tough, cloth is scarce.. but I have a fucking huge suit..you should mate with me...or respect me.

Quite an obvious expression.

Our current trend reflects our demonisation of being over weight... suits so tight theu actually restrict the amount of people who can wear the look.

Again... in a time of plenty and obesity I can be slim? What does that suggest? Health? Restraint? Discipline?

 

#10 2014-11-02 01:14:47

fxh
Big Down Under.
From: Melbourne
Posts: 6159

Re: What went wrong?

I don't want to derail this thread as Carpu has made a very important point that is worth a lot of discussion.
But.

I do really like that art above - it that you or Rothko?

I must say I visit Blue Poles by Pollack every time I am in Canberra and I never cease to find it wonderful. I just don't understand those who cant see its a great work.

 

#11 2014-11-02 01:29:24

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: What went wrong?

Last edited by 4F Hepcat (2014-11-02 01:41:57)


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#12 2014-11-02 01:55:57

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

 

#13 2014-11-02 01:59:16

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

I found the quote.. you can see the parallel. .

"without monsters and gods, art cannot enact a drama."

Just before this in the essay he talks about us as beasts..so I got it a bit confused.

 

#14 2014-11-02 01:15:24

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

So to answer Carpus question what went wrong... Id argue people were seduced by the atmosphere of madmen and the allure that dressing smartly presented. .however two things occurred. .firstly desingers had to make these clothes of their own, so designs were not identical and they were ignorant to the looks details.  Or we assumed the feeling was more important than the look..the look only had to approximate the feeling. Bring into that cost..time etc..You have a reworking and approximation fed by desire to feel and businesses to make money.

The reason I think we enjoy detail..is because it is more difficult to achieve an authentic look so the reward to our brains is greater when we recognise it.

Maybe we are harder to please..or need greater authenticity to bring about the feelings that we are trying to recreate?

 

#15 2014-11-02 01:54:04

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: What went wrong?

I thought the wardrobe and especially the watches were spot-on, but not being around on Madison Avenue in the early 60s, I will never know for sure.

And of course, the series was not so much about the ad world of the 60s, but our own time, through the prism of this era and profession.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#16 2014-11-02 03:49:25

Yuca
Member
Posts: 8568

Re: What went wrong?


some sort of banal legitimacy

 

#17 2014-11-02 06:16:02

Chévere
Member
From: Baltimore
Posts: 856

Re: What went wrong?


Cógelo suave, pero cógelo.

 

#18 2014-11-02 07:08:10

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

The trouble with Mondrian imo is he didn't paint outside the lines. Hollywood Boogie Woogie begins to look disorganised. But to anyone who has ever quantised music on a piece of music software when you lock everything to the beat it sounds mechanical and robotic..I think thats were he went wrong with how he ordered the space ..when you play outside and around the pulse that is when things become interesting. Pollock went to an extreme of almost losing any strict measure.

The above piece which is called 'Melody Hanging on Rhythm' is my attempt at giving the visual order of the grid, call that tempo or pulse, whilst the colours behind play to the rhythm but sit on or around the pulse. The colours themselves follow a system of dissonance and cossonance exactly like music.

 

#19 2014-11-02 07:12:19

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: What went wrong?


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#20 2014-11-02 07:29:39

carpu65
Member
Posts: 1502

Re: What went wrong?

 

#21 2014-11-02 08:16:23

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: What went wrong?


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#22 2014-11-02 08:17:02

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

That's a reason as good as any!

 

#23 2014-11-02 08:18:01

formby
Member
From: Wiseacre
Posts: 8359

Re: What went wrong?

I made a post about chaos, but deleted it as I don't want to get in a discussion about chaos theory.

I would like to know where Carpu gets the idea from that modern people don't understand 'beautiful'.?

If he were to take a look, at some of the appliances that modern people buy, or the cars they drive...he'll find that this isn't the case at all. Art schools are turning out industrial designers by the ton. There are more beautiful things than ever before...more choice...more discernment.

I think this is a case of simply privileging ones choice over that of others.

The Miles Davis thread currently running on Talk Ivy is quite interesting because it shows how supposedly stylish men can are somewhat slaves to the prevailing mode.

In fact, I think you could construct a good argument that the stylish-man is always au-courant.

As a side note, I believe those short jackets that cause so much disparagement, are on the way out.

So some of you can breathe a little easier.


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#24 2014-11-02 08:22:48

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

I don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes on it, it's just the observational theory I put behind my art. I want to create something that perfectly aheres and opposes at the same time. Like how those Persian rug makers make deliberate mistakes. Mathematical perfection can be very plain the chaos and ugliness needs to be there so we can recognise perfection amd beauty. 

Like rothko said Demons and Gids give drama. Drama is really flux..and all things are in flux

 

#25 2014-11-02 08:24:03

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: What went wrong?

My spelling makes me sound like the policeman from Allo' Allo' so im leaving the typos in

 

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