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#26 2016-04-29 08:03:47

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#27 2016-04-29 08:12:32

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#28 2016-04-29 08:46:15

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

Standing up for a two state solution is not an untenable posistion to any rational person, what it is like Woof described is a completely stupid piece of detail to use. Over in the US Mr Sanders can stand up and comment on the situation because lets face it...the guy is Jewish and spent a part of his time living in Israel.. Ken is not that...and with it he's a complete idiot with no sense about him at all.. there are people who want a solution on both sides..there are also those that benefit from dividing people whether on the pro or anti side of the issue..Ken has not helped the cause for a solution, he left himself completely exposed to the anger that would've been thrown at him..and nothing good has been achieved other than a thicker and deeper wedge between people and the chance of the issue being brought into mainstream political discussion in a sensible way is even less now.

Put him out to graze

Last edited by Bop (2016-04-29 09:10:32)

 

#29 2016-04-29 10:47:20

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#30 2016-04-29 13:36:01

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

Hitler was voted in to power and proceeded to enact laws to opress and ultimately extinguish the Jewish population.

It is blindingly obvious that the quote 'Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal' is a warning about that not an endorsement of it.


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#31 2016-04-30 00:02:00

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

This is an astute piece by Charles Moore in today's Telegraph on the decline of Labour and its submission to institutionalised anti-Semitism, Ken's book where he got the idea that Nazis and the jews where working together in the run-up to the holocaust gets a mention as well:

Jeremy Corbyn has refused to share a platform with David Cameron over the EU referendum, although they both advocate a Remain vote. Mr Corbyn’s stated reason for this refusal is that “We are not on the same side”.

In his long career, Mr Corbyn has shared a platform with – among many other such – Sheikh Raed Saleh, who (elsewhere) repeated the “blood libel” against the Jews, and called them “monkeys” and “bacteria”; with representatives of the British Muslim Initiative, which plays the anti-Semitic card of comparing Jews with Nazis with its “Stop the Holocaust in Gaza” placards; and with what he calls his “friends” from Hamas. Hamas’ Charter refers to “the Jews’ Nazism” and quotes approvingly the saying of the Prophet that when Jews hide from Moslems behind stones and trees, “The stones and trees will say: 'O Moslems…, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him’.”

Sharing a platform with the above, Mr Corbyn presumably believes that he and they, unlike he and Mr Cameron, are on the same side.

“One of our two main parties has adopted, almost without thinking about it, an ideology of which race hate is an intrinsic part”
   
It is in this context that one must place Ken Livingstone and his Zionists = Hitler outburst and Naz Shah’s suggestion (which Mr Livingstone was excusing) that the entire population of Israel should be deported to the United States. Both of them must feel bewildered by the condemnation heaped upon them, because they inhabit a party whose leader has, over his 40 years in politics, spent hundreds and hundreds of hours sharing platforms with virtually every sort of Muslim anti-Semite and advocate of terrorism that one can imagine. They may have thought they had permission.

There is, of course, an important difference between Mr Livingstone and Mr Corbyn. You can tell by the way the former drags Hitler in, by his bad-taste references to hating Jews as if it were half-funny, that he actually is personally anti-Semitic. You can find no such thing, to be the best of my knowledge, about Mr Corbyn.

But I’m not sure that makes things better. If Labour’s problem was individual, oddball anti-Semites, they could simply be removed. If it is about an ideology so wide and deep that its adherents don’t even realise what they are supporting, then you really have got trouble. If perfectly pleasant people like Mr Corbyn, with no personal malice, nevertheless make common cause with such extremism, then you have got, to use a concept beloved of the Left, institutional racism.

This story is less to do with individual wickedness than with what has happened to the Left. The stuff that Mr Livingstone garbled about Hitler supporting Zionism comes from a book by Lenni Brenner called Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. Brenner, a Trotskyite who renounced his own Jewish upbringing, sought to prove that Zionism in the Thirties was a Jewish collaboration with Hitler. In the early Eighties, when the book was published, Mr Livingstone was in charge of Labour Herald, the newspaper vehicle for his hard-Left takeover of London Labour (printed with the help of money from Colonel Gaddafi’s Libya). Labour Herald gave Brenner’s book an ecstatic review. It was part of a growing trend.

During the Sixties, much of the Left moved from its traditional concern with the organised working class to a greater focus on “the wretched of the earth”. The phrase was the title of a book by the Marxist philosopher, Franz Fanon, who heavily influenced, among others, the young Barack Obama. In this picture, the greatest enemy was colonialism, and the perpetual victim was the Third World, or what is nowadays called the Global South. Violent struggle by the victims to cast off their shackles was advocated.

In the same period, the Soviet Union, which had frequently used anti-Semitic propaganda to reinforce its internal repressions, began to export the stuff. In the Middle East, where it sought advantage against the United States and the West, such tropes were particularly effective. Many in the Muslim world craved support for the idea that Israel, which had so amazingly trounced its Arab neighbours when they attacked it in 1967, was part of a global plot by Western power and money to keep them in subjection.

Until then, in countries like Britain, Jews and Israel had usually been well treated by the Left and seen as allies in the fight against fascism. Now this shifted. The Young Liberals, taken over by leftists such as Peter Hain, who much later became a Labour Cabinet Minister, were the first grouping to become militant about the Palestinian cause. Then the ideology spread, and gradually broadened into the all-encompassing account of dispossession and oppression – applicable from Bethlehem to Belfast to Birmingham, Alabama – which it is today.

One might have thought that September 11 2001 would have made this movement pause. If blood-crazed theocrats had started the 21st century by blowing up themselves and a couple of thousand ordinary citizens in the name of Allah, might it not be time for a bit of secular modernity? But no, instead these events seemed only to assist the narrative of burning grievance against the West, and the conspiracy theories that go with it. Many of the chaps and organisations with whom Jeremy Corbyn has shared platforms have ever since promoted the brilliant idea that it was actually the Jews who destroyed the World Trade Centre. I have not heard Mr Corbyn rebuke them for saying this.

Although people like Mr Corbyn have never shown belief in Islamist doctrines about chucking homosexuals off cliffs or imposing sharia law or torching synagogues, they have found themselves absolutely unable to confront such things. In doing so, they would have to question the most sacred tenet of the “anti-imperialist” Left, that the Western powers are always wrong. Besides, why should they consider accusations that they are anti-Semitic? In their minds, anti-Semitism, like all other racism, is a product of fascism. They are anti-fascists, so they simply can’t be racists.

By electing Mr Corbyn as leader, Labour in effect endorsed this paranoid narrative of grievance and conspiracy that has developed over the last 50 years. So its new recruits are drawn from that school of thought – more Islamists and anti-Semites; fewer Jews, or, come to that, ordinary working people. Unlike in the Eighties, the party has not been infiltrated in a calculated manner (though Mr Corbyn’s lieutenants are now making up for lost time). It has simply decayed so much that its immune system can no longer resist the infection. One of our two main parties has adopted, almost without thinking about it, an ideology of which race hate is an intrinsic part. This has never happened before in Britain.

Next week, London will elect a new Mayor. Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate, is astute. He was quick to condemn Mr Livingstone on Thursday. But he too has done a good deal of platform-sharing. In 2004, for example, he appeared on the same bill in Tooting as prominent Holocaust deniers, Hamas supporters, misogynists and supporters of violence against Israel. He now says he “regrets giving the impression” that he shared their views The other main performer on the platform that day was a backbench Labour MP, one Jeremy Corbyn. Today, regrets are too late.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#32 2016-04-30 00:16:57

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

And here lies the problem... the duality of it... Corbyn never strikes me as someone who is looking to do anything else other than open lines of communication...even the journalist above admits that to a degree... so with this then if the solution is to move both parties forward how is that done? It is a political tool used by the left and the right...to consolidate themselves into opposing factions, basically people are saying they dont want compromise they want their way...how is that going to get us anywhere, and how much of this is people actually caring about the Jewish community in this country and not just using a very emotive matter to oust a political opponent ? The Jewish Socialist party have come out in support of Labour and Corbyn... so how is this anything other than broader politcal issue of the right wing press trying to undermine Corbyn...and the right arent so squeeky clean when it comes to actual antisemitic thought are they..we all know what the Daily Mail came out of. They wouldve had Hitler walk into power here..and they tried for it...

Labour can't afford to have idiots like Ken saying things like this...whether he wants to pick at' historical' details or not he hasn't got a clue how to go about this he is clearly interested and biased to a side.. you cant come into arena of settling the issue with topics and language like he has used...the guy is foolish and blinded by a sense of what he sees as justice, and not one of compromise and understanding between the two sides.

Last edited by Bop (2016-04-30 00:26:53)

 

#33 2016-04-30 01:46:24

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#34 2016-04-30 04:25:14

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

^

You sound...just like Ken Livingstone.


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#35 2016-04-30 04:58:13

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#36 2016-04-30 05:01:22

Kingston1an
Member
Posts: 4180

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

As Gilad Atzmon points out, 'Labour has a Jewish problem it is dominated by Zionist oligarchs' :-

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2016/4/11/jewish-money-and-the-labour-party-here-are-the-numbers

Getting more like the US every day.

Mind you, as Peter Oborne showed Jewish money has controlled all the major UK parties:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lby-BP5xVRI


"Florid, smug, middle-aged golf club bore in this country I'd say. Propping up the 19th hole in deepest Surrey bemoaning the perils of immigration."

 

#37 2016-04-30 05:24:42

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#38 2016-04-30 06:58:19

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#39 2016-04-30 07:27:11

The Absintheist
Member
Posts: 189

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

 

#40 2016-04-30 07:34:18

formby1
Member
From: Hauteur Extraordinaire
Posts: 1039

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


"Dressing, like painting, should have a residual stability, plus punctuation and surprise." - Richard Merkin

Souvent me Souvient

 

#41 2016-04-30 08:21:35

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

Indeed, the late and great Christopher Hitchens. His philosophy of not moving up to expensive whiskies, is well worth following.

This is good on how the Left was seduced by the dark side of the force:

http://www.thetower.org/article/the-holocaust-the-left-and-the-return-of-hate/

The Livingstone Formulation, named after Ken:

https://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/david-hirsh-the-livingstone-formulation/

The key question now is whether the Great British public will punish Labour next week, or whether the anti-Semitism will work for them?

I will be watching the results with some interest, to see how far anti-Semitism has gone mainstream.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#42 2016-04-30 08:26:28

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

Or whether the Great British public will give Labour a right bloody nose before consigning them into the dustbin of history!


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#43 2016-04-30 09:56:57

Bop
Member
Posts: 7661

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

Well I think its a case of what the papers say...Corbyn could be caught putting his recycling in the wrong bin and the right would call it a crisis in the Labour Party. The Jewish Socialist Society have already come out in support of JC so there is your Jewish left wing vote..cant believe they would garner much support from the Jews on the right anyway...polls putting Labour ahead because lets face it most people face issues that Labour are offering relief from...will the actions of a leftwing simpleton really change the vote surge..even with all the right wing press going into meltdown about it? Well no its not is it...? Not for the average person who feels we need a Tory alternative

 

#44 2016-04-30 14:27:06

woofboxer
Devil's Ivy Advocate
From: The Lost County of Middlesex
Posts: 7959

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left


'I'm not that keen on the Average Look .......ever'. 
John Simons

Achievements: banned from the Ivy Style FB Group

 

#45 2016-05-01 01:09:57

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

I did watch the interview, Sky News showed it. They were pretty much gentle and magnanimous towards the terminal fool. He kept on referring to the Israeli PM to justify his position, but his quote is selectively lifted and taken out of context.

It will be interesting to see which way the 99% vote next week, but I wager Labour will be satisfied with the Mayor of London and Corbyn will consolidate his power from this.

It doesn't really matter anyway, the game is called revolution and this is not decided by the ballot box.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#46 2016-05-01 12:53:56

chatsworth osborne jr.
Member
Posts: 738

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

 

#47 2016-05-01 16:54:02

Kingston1an
Member
Posts: 4180

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

"One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all."

Abba Eban


"Florid, smug, middle-aged golf club bore in this country I'd say. Propping up the 19th hole in deepest Surrey bemoaning the perils of immigration."

 

#48 2016-05-01 20:34:39

chatsworth osborne jr.
Member
Posts: 738

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

 

#49 2016-05-02 05:18:28

4F Hepcat
THE Cat
Posts: 14333

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

^The above demonstrates why decent people have given up on the Left.


Vibe-Rations in Spectra-Sonic-Sound

 

#50 2016-05-02 08:37:32

Kingston1an
Member
Posts: 4180

Re: Why I've finally given up on the left

^ Non sequitur.

But, if it is the best you can come up with...........


"Florid, smug, middle-aged golf club bore in this country I'd say. Propping up the 19th hole in deepest Surrey bemoaning the perils of immigration."

 

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