I don't know about you but these are features I think I can now live without. The construction of the pleat is still important but I feel these other features are, well, often surplus to requirement. Is it true that Gant produced a shirt with a cut locker loop, just as Ralph Lauren offered chinos with ready-made holes? Do back button and locker loop belong to that category known as 'nostalgia'?
I think they do. Especially the loop. I don’t think I’ve ever been in a locker room - let alone needed to hang my shirt up in one. The back button does at least prevent the collar riding up.
Surely these days just a bit of extra detail satisfaction?
Something that’s in the DNA of some of us - the need to give out secret signs or give approving nods?
I think the cut loop was some 'going steady' thing back in the day (USA-high school?). But, in the UK, at least to some extent, there are 'fitted', loud check, Ben Sherman-ish associations, are there not?
There are. Definitely a few Ben Sherman ‘style’ manufacturers. And probably Ben Sherman themselves made quite a big deal about their shirts having the ‘correct’ details of loop and back buttons. If only they’d been so keen to keep the collar roll.
Actually I’ve been quite happy to keep hold of a lot of my Ben Shermans. I’ve even purchased a few over the last few years if I fancied the colour or check. The collars are still just about a decent size.
I guess there would be unsavoury associations if I wore them with turned up jeans and boots. Especially as I’m bald.
Yes. I think the story is that the girl was allowed to cut the locker loop to signify that you were ‘taken’. Quite cute really. Although it would seem a shame to loose your best girl and your best shirt on the same day.
Nice point, that last!
It was said, by a former poster, that some of the original shirts weren't at all bad: like the original Baracuta Harrington.
I would imagine that in the context of what else was readily available at that time they were fantastic. Not just the cut and detail, but the colours.
I believe one of the first retailers to stock Ben Sherman shirts was Edgar Jerome's in Aldershot. Still going. Most stock still held on wooden shelves and cabinets behind the counter, and until very recently hand written receipts.
Ben Sherman (the man) could see the benefit of getting his product into every corner of every high street. So lots of people could easily get hold of them. And of course have good memories tied in with what they wore at that time.
If, as some historians would have us believe, all kids in the UK went mad for mod and Ivy league clothing on the same day in 1964, it’s difficult to see all of them descending on Cecil Gee or Austins. Far more likely that they’d have headed to their local high street and been delighted to find Ben Shermans there.
Of course like high street shopping kids now, most of them wouldn’t have been thinking about the quality of the materials.
Wow Edgar Jerome, haven't been there for years, I think I may have had a BS back in the day that came in a box.
Yes they’re still there. We get the boy’s school uniform off them.
Still selling Ben Sherman and Fred Perry.
Still keen on measuring your inside leg if you go in for a jacket
Spendthrift, there used to be a tiny menswear shop in the Arcade, do you remember it ? I bought some nice reasonably priced Scottish knitwear from there. It was made by a company called Highland Glen. I also remember they also sold the original G9 Baracuta in there. I can't remember the footwear but it was definitely not American.
Pleasing little details on shirts.
Double buttons on the cuffs - that enable you to fasten the cuff looser or tighter.
Gauntlet buttons - I never fasten them but I like having them.
The six fold shirring pleats on the cuffs of most Brooks Makers shirts - a lovely detail that helps to put them in a class of their own..
A split yoke - I like it very much but not normally found on Brooks shirts.
The back pleat - goes without saying really.
Button down collar - ditto.
Locker loop - not bothered either way.
Flap pocket - the J Press trademark. I like the idea of it more than the actuality as it makes it difficult to accommodate anything thats bigger than the pocket itself, for example a pair of sunglasses. Plus flap pockets look a bit odd under a jacket.
Gussetts? - on the body of some shirts at the bottom of the side seam the tailor sews in a triangular-shaped piece of cloth that eases the bottom of the shirt and enables it to sit better when it’s tucked inside your trousers. Now this is a detail I would really fetishise over.
The back collar - a bit Mod’ish and a bit of a nuisance if you’re wearing a tie, so overall I’m not bothered. I’m thinking of ordering another shirt from Jake’s and I’ll ask him to omit the back button.
^ Instructive. What 'Talk Ivy' is all about.
At the risk of being repetitive: the old Makers were BD perfection for my tastes.
There was a time (apparently - I've only read about it and have never seen the evidence) when Brooks BDs were all pullover style and came with a 3 button collar as standard. Maybe one or both of those features would be as appealing as or even an improvement on the classic old school Makers that followed, and if I ever need a new OCBD again I could always order one from the Mercers with one or both of the aforementioned modifications. I'm sure I'd love the end result.
On the other hand: you can't improve perfection.
Runninggeez. I remember the old arcade very well. As a young kid being dragged down there by my gran to visit the haberdasher. And when a bit older we would go to ‘Cherry Designs’ in there. A bricks and mortar shop that seemed to make a living selling just badges, patches and Samantha Fox calenders. A world long since gone. Also Henry Du Bora round the corner selling old army surplus.
I imagine the shop you mention was a bit before my time (see Samantha Fox. Above)
This was early 80's Spendthrift, I remember Du Boro's and also the Globetrotter pub, never went in there Para's only. I can't remember what that men's shop was called though.
^ Solidarity with Yuca over that style of Brooks shirt, though I've never - to my knowledge - seen even a photograph of one. I suppose Jake's could do something along those lines.
I vaguely recall seeing a Brooks ad featuring one. Of course from the days when their ads contained small black and white drawings.
According to the Mercer website they offer as a custom detail 'four button placket pullover/popover'. I think I discussed it with them once, many years ago. On a 6 button shirt the top 4 buttons go down a lot further than the plackets on the popovers that became popular in the 1960s. Almost to the waist in fact.
For a 1940s or earlier ivy fan maybe the BD pullover would be essential kit. I have no idea when the full length placket shirt was introduced. By Brooks or in general.
Incidentally: the back button was a revival of an obsolete feature that had been phased out (in the 1940s I think). Whereas I'm pretty sure that the locker loop was a new innovation.
I see both as a (successful) method by Gant to differentiate themselves in a competitive market. I say successful because they seem to have been very popular towards the end of the boom years. To me though they were gimmicks really. Particularly the locker loop.
^ Excellent stuff here. I recall seeing a couple of old Brooks line drawings but I think they were for the sack suit.
A popover might be my ideal shirt given the right fabric. I could not get on with the olive cord shirt I bought at Chiltern Street in 2012. Neither fish nor fowl. It felt too bulky tucked in and would have looked odd if left untucked. Maybe a lightweight Madras popover would be something to consider; and flannel. Vintage items seem to command fairly substantial prices.
For a popover, yes something lightweight and a little youthful perhaps. For a pullover I think one of the few cloths that Brooks did back in the 1940s would probably work best. Oxford in blue or white. I think they used to do broadcloth back then too.
I found a Brooks ad from 1939 that mentions their shirts coming in '8 plain colors - countless striped patterns'. It's hard to read the fabric descriptions.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-29aw_6DHhJE/TsYBhfMjecI/AAAAAAAAApQ/1NnsZI1u3i8/s1600/brooks1939c.jpg
Last edited by Yuca (2021-11-26 13:32:11)
I’ve got a couple of Madras popovers that are summer items designed to be worn untucked, I’m undecided about them. However I have no doubts about my rejection of the sort you tuck in, they are not especially flattering for gentleman who have acquired a bit of additional ‘timber’ along the way and they just look as though something is missing i.e. buttons that go down to the waistline. Only my personal preference of course.
Never risked a popover for reasons stated by Woof....
Woof,
I simply hate untucked shirts. I have short legs and they make me look like I’m wearing an apron. Far too scruffy.
In the madras pop overs I size up to avoid having them untucked.
I had a JS popover once. I sold it on. A very youthful look that I think only existed in the 1960s.
Whereas I see the pullover shirt as to be worn with flannels, a 50s (or earlier) tweed sack and a tie of a suitable width. Pennies, saddle shoes or bucks for footwear.
But I've just found photos of Miles Davis in 2 different pullovers, both of which he wears tieless and jacketless. I think it's a more mature or versatile look than the popover, particularly when worn with smartish trousers.
Last edited by Yuca (2021-11-26 13:41:10)