'Is ‘dislike of your own country/the other man’s grass is always greener’ a thing with British Ivyists?'

This is a really good question. I certainly don't dislike my country. I'm bored of it, and do wish I lived somewhere else. But the fact that I don't is purely down to me. So it's unfair of me to lash out at the rest of the country for what is a result of my own apathy and lack of drive.

It is difficult not to get depressed when I see the antics and habits of everyone around me. But I suspect through history the English have always been the same to one degree or another. It's not really a 21st Century thing. And I'm not 100% sure that the issues and problems are getting worse. It's just me getting older and moaning about it more.

What do I find most frustrating? People living their lives through the medium of soap operas, social media. Celebrity worship. Families sitting in a McDonalds car park eating Sunday lunch. The awful, depressing site of groups of teenagers having nothing better to do than ride around on children's BMX's in town centres. Not interested enough to go any further than JD Sports for their clothes. But I am pretty sure that if I went to live in a suburb around Melbourne, Delaware or Dortmund I'd see similar things.

I'm probably alone in this one. But It almost seems to me that at some point the English faced some kind of ultimatum; Be more American, or more European, but you can't stay British. And being British we embraced the worst of America. The trash. I'm not saying The US isn't great and hasn't done great things. But we seem to wilfully ignore the good stuff.

On the whole, if we're on holiday in Europe, US, wherever, we've chosen that place because it's an unusually nice place to be, and we don't have to do anything but enjoy it while we're there. It's easy to get sucked into thinking this is how your life could be.

Last edited by Spendthrift (2022-03-24 05:54:09)

‘I thought - or imagined - that much of the point of wearing 'Ivy League' clothing in London in the 1950s and 60s was to permit - no, encourage - the wearer to look outwards: to New York specifically, to New England, to California, to Milan and Rome, to Paris and Marseilles, to Barcelona, even to Majorca and Ibiza.  Otherwise, what was the point?  ’

I thought it was just to look good. This was in the days when many still cared about a smart appearance.

Ivy was just a slightly different look - oneupmanship. Nothing wrong with British kit either. Music and film may have helped promote the style.

AFS - Well, that's more than half the appeal for me. It's an ideal that I still cling to. Even though that 50s/60s golden moment of realisation is long, long gone.

And if those new attitudes won out in the end, I don't know if it was for the best or not? People might have been encouraged to look outwards, but did they interpret it correctly? 

How many people still think New York is one big episode of 'Friends'? Probably as many as thought it was like an episode of NYPD Blue. Instant espresso granules are available in supermarkets with dried pasta and ham and pineapple pizza. Somewhere along the line the romantic idea of the American Diner became a drive through KFC. Frank Sinatra became Michael Buble.

Last edited by Spendthrift (2022-03-24 06:48:18)

Kingston1an - 'Nostalgia means I often think things were better in the past'

This is very true. Years ago I listened to a piece on the radio, where a very wide range of people had been helping in the study of nostalgia, and how it shapes our opinions and preferences. They were all ages from thirties up to nearly one hundred, from different countries and backgrounds.

I particularly remember an old Jamaican guy and a mid forties English extreme right winger.

All participants were asked to describe how they would like all aspects of the ideal world to be if they had the power to change it. Without exception, the results showed that they would like the world to be the same as they perceived it to be when they were ten years old.

‘All participants were asked to describe how they would like all aspects of the ideal world to be if they had the power to change it. Without exception, the results showed that they would like the world to be the same as they perceived it to be when they were ten years old.’

Ten years old would do. Without the Cuban missile crisis; but with many of the conveniences and bonuses that have become commonplace since - foreign holidays, cars, consumer durables. Despite the missile crisis, there was otherwise a sense that things were getting better. ‘You’ve never had it so good’ as Supermac used to say.

After re-reading Blake, read D.H.Lawrence.  In depth and at length.  The Eastwood he knew has changed - of course it has - and it's where one side of my family originate.  I had an uncle who crossed the county border to marry my aunt.  Quite a big deal.  Then, in the grim town where my father grew up, men had fought one another with iron-tipped clogs - in living memory.  No wonder he fancied wearing an Italian suit, a skinny tie and listening to the Modern Jazz Quartet. 
Lawrence liked Italy.  So do I.  But, find yourself at Felley Priory, about twenty minutes drive from the street where Lawrence was born, you'll think yourself in a different world: all Tudor brick and fresh-looking ploughed fields in the near distance.  I think they even serve pots of tea along with their 'smoothies' and odd types of coffee (gingerbread shot anyone?). 
Then you can try and find Sutton Scarsdale, overlooking the motorway and all but forgotten.

Kington1an - 'Ten years old would do'

See? It works! I was ten in 1982. Just released from private school back to my old comp'. Madness riding high in the charts. Nothing to worry about apart from whether my copy of The Beano would arrive. Got a Raleigh Chopper for my birthday. I'd go back.

Last edited by Spendthrift (2022-03-24 07:27:16)

^ I suppose that should read 'ability'.  She was highly active in that department.

My abiding memory of private school - When you turned 10 you were allowed to visit the headmaster in his private study. Where he would sit you on his knees and jiggle you up and down while he sang a happy song.

I earned that bike.

I was a fan of Desperate Dan in the Dandy comic. He loved a cow pie.
As a kid I got the Dandy and the Beano every week. Then when I showed a bit of promise 'Look and Learn' appeared on my reading list.

I try to live in the present but always have a nagging feeling that things were generally better for my people in the past during my youth. I lead a good life today but everything depends on one's health and once that goes you are truly fucked.

I am relieved to see that the blue train indicators at Earls Court are not being removed. They are much clearer than the ones at the end of the platform and a welcome fixture in an ever-changing world. District Line Tubes as busy as pre-covid times.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/london-underground-earls-court-heritage-23526693

Comics - when I was seven The Eagle started being delivered once a week along with the paper. I don’t recall asking for, or being previously aware of it, but it always featured articles about technology and engineering along with the serials. It whetted my appetite to find out more about plenty of things. Later I found out that my dad, who was a commercial artist, had ordered it because he liked the drawings in it and wanted to copy some of them for a job he was working on. Comics tended to reinforce stereotypes which would be frowned on today. My favourite character was Alf Tupper, The Tough of The Track, who featured in The Victor, he was a working class athlete who ran his best races after a hearty meal of fish and chips and continually clashed with ‘posh types’ on and off the track, invariably coming out on top.