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#51 2022-05-09 14:38:04

Runninggeez
Member
Posts: 688

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

I work with a guy who's in his 50's and doesn't like music. I caught him watching Michael Buble on YouTube.

 

#52 2022-05-09 15:54:19

AlveySinger
Member
Posts: 900

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

The problem with jazz in the UK isn't with the music but the audience. I can't think of any other art form that attracts such arse-holes.

There are far too many pretentious listeners who like to either show-off their knowledge, often quoting catalogue numbers and personnel details or talk about obscure recordings that are typically shit. One up man ship for people who are socially awkward.

It has been my misfortune to meet many of these types over the years. They disgust me because their exclusive attitude helps marginalise the music.

Jazz is a gift that gives you loads without asking for anything back. It should be enjoyed for what it is.

 

#53 2022-05-10 00:38:57

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Opera?  Any form of longhair music?

 

#54 2022-05-10 00:46:01

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Alvey is doubtless right about certain types of audience though.  You can read reports of New York supper club audiences talking over the performers.  Then, on a Blossom Dearie CD recorded in New York in 1984, the audience are a distraction.  They appreciate her music and singing but are just too achingly hip.  The live Ronnie Scott recording from 1966 is preferable.
Watch 'Annie Hall': the sequence where Annie is attempting to sing in a noisy bar.  Bobby Short was apparently treated badly. 
My late father knew plenty but he wore his knowledge lightly - and probably never wasted his time discussing the music with anyone who he knew wasn't interested.  Not one for making converts.

 

#55 2022-05-10 01:46:58

Runninggeez
Member
Posts: 688

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

There are far too many pretentious listeners who like to either show-off their knowledge, often quoting catalogue numbers and personnel details or talk about obscure recordings that are typically shit. One up man ship for people who are socially awkward.

The late Tommy Chase despised these types, he loved the young audiences that would either appreciate Jazz music for what it is or would just get up and dance.

 

#56 2022-05-10 01:51:45

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

I suspect some of the soul fraternity were even worse, back in the day.  But they'd have seen being ITK as all part of the fun.  I doubt if the Northern Soul circuit, circa 1970, was as inclusive as some reckon.

 

#57 2022-05-10 13:33:26

AlveySinger
Member
Posts: 900

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

AFS,
Soul?
Depends on what type. Can't talk for the Northern lot but Soul Funk guys all about good times, dancing and fun.
No one up man ship. Record shops were all about sharing.If you like- this try this attitude.
DJ's didn't do cover ups either.

No Bobby Short was treated like a prince by The Carlyle. He asked for and was paid handsomely. How many cabaret singers can afford their own house in the South Of France ?

The scene in Annie Hall was at the Cafe Carlyle and believe me if you could afford their prices you would listen to every word.

 

#58 2022-05-10 16:06:06

Tim
Member
Posts: 289

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Unlike some here, I’m a sucker for hard bop, in fact, the harder and faster, the better. I love the Talented Mr Ripley Quote from Richard Greenleaf Sr “to me it’s just insolent noise??  - and that’s what I love about it. Later stuff from accredited bop masters leaves me cold. Coltrane and Davis blowing notes just for the sake of it in an attempt to discover something new and irreverent, utter wank. Give me Dizz scatting at the start of “Salt Peanuts?? , Cliff Brown blowing his head off with “Blues Walk??   and Horace wading into “Cheesecake??  at full tilt. Bloody marvelous. I agree about dropping catalog numbers and arguing about which joe jones played on which album though, I suppose to some that kind of thing is important - I like finding the stuff I like and then trying to remember where I heard it in the first place, that’s where a lot of my enjoyment of jazz comes from!

 

#59 2022-05-10 16:09:40

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

I was listening to Coltrane and Davis blowing notes just for the sake of it around five o'clock.

I guess I was just wasting my time.

 

#60 2022-05-10 16:11:24

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

In fact, to describe 'Kind Of Blue' in that way is one of the most stupid things I've read on here in a very long while.  Even Yuca would find it difficult to compete with that.

 

#61 2022-05-10 16:14:05

Tim
Member
Posts: 289

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

To each their own AFS, no offense intended by it. Cool jazz just leaves me exactly that, cold. I own one or two of the better known albums from that style, the kind that appear on lists of “fifty jazz albums you must hear??  and some of it fancies my tickle and an awful lot of it doesn’t. Possibly because I don’t understand it, possibly because I’m too bone idle to try and understand it and possibly because some of it has all the musical merit of blowing farts with an empty ketchup bottle.

 

#62 2022-05-10 16:14:21

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Also, what does Gillespie's rather inane (if enjoyable) scatting have to do with hard bop?

 

#63 2022-05-10 16:18:20

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Mm, 'Birth Of The Cool' doesn't do much for me - I'll admit that much.  Those lists you mention ought to be completely ignored.  They're of no merit, like lists of '100 Great Movies You Must See Before You Die' etc.  'Citizen Kane' always stands at Number One, often followed by a popcorn movie like 'The Shawshank Redemption'.  But, as Andrew Sarris once asked, who has actually seen 'Citizen Kane'?  And who, having watched it once, wants to watch it again?

 

#64 2022-05-10 16:21:56

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Bebop wise, I'd advise anyone listening to Parker blowing his head off (impressive though it might be) to take a chance on 'Lover Man'.  As Frosty once said, when I crossed swords with him, Bird did cut to the chase.  But, slower, he was better.

 

#65 2022-05-10 16:22:02

Tim
Member
Posts: 289

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Personally I’d consider Salt Peanuts one of the examples of early hard bop, or even proto hard bop rather than just bebop and to me the zenith version of that is the version with the scatted intro - alas I forget which album but possibly The Champ?

 

#66 2022-05-10 16:23:04

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Alvey?

 

#67 2022-05-10 16:24:57

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Bebop, I'd say.  I remember my father playing it many times when I was young.  Highly enjoyable.

 

#68 2022-05-10 16:28:01

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Coltrane is variable - as was, say, Mingus (and even Ellington).  Early Coltrane - thumbs up.  'A Love Supreme' (and a good deal else) - not for me.

 

#69 2022-05-10 16:31:44

Tim
Member
Posts: 289

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Also, I didn’t mention any specific Albums because I’m far from any kind of expert when it comes to it. Certainly I don’t consider Kind of Blue to fall into that vein. I’d rather listen to Workin’ or Cookin’ or Struttin’ if I were to listen to Mr Davis however, just personal preference. There is no right or wrong when it comes to music in my opinion, it’s purely down to personal taste and just because you may not like what I enjoy and vice versa doesn’t make either of us wrong.

 

#70 2022-05-10 16:34:29

Tim
Member
Posts: 289

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Also, yes, Salt Peanuts is generally considered bebop - but the version I’m thinking of and wish I could track down (at least a youtube video) is played at a faster tempo than usual and has serious hard-bop elements, hence my labeling it as proto hard bop. I think it’s a later recording too, early to mid fifties. I’ll continue to search for it!

 

#71 2022-05-11 03:48:58

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Apologies to Tim.  It was getting late and I was feeling irritable.  It comes (perhaps) with advancing age.  I have to take my five year old grandson to see the skeleton of a tyrannosaurus rex at the end of the month and am not exactly looking forward to my unasked for 'old fart' duties. 
All must listen to what they will, whether jazz or any other form of music.  Of course they must.  I simply don't like hard bop.  I'm even fairly indifferent to much bebop nowadays.  As a younger man it was all bebop pretty much.  But I noted the same changes in my father, exemplified (if that's the word I'm looking for) by the shift from Parker to Lester Young and Ben Webster.

 

#72 2022-05-11 04:53:44

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Whitney Balliett: Blossom Dearie subbed for Bobby Short at the Carlyle.  The audience were said to be noisy and inattentive and Bloss was obliged to rebuke them.  She preferred playing in Europe, especially at Scott's in the 60s.  Audiences were said to be more appreciative there.  But then, European and Japanese enthusiasm for American music has often exceeded that of the Americans themselves.

 

#73 2022-05-11 06:43:08

AlveySinger
Member
Posts: 900

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

I love hard bop. It's my favourite form of straight jazz. Art Blakey remains a  firm favourite.If anyone ever has a chance to listen to any of his later recordings on Timeless when Blakey was pretty old will be genuinely bowled over by the quality.

I think Salt peanuts is more straight ahead be-bop than hard bop. although as hard bop is a natural extension of be-bop I can see the confusion. I also see scat singing as belonging to Be-Boppers.

I'm not a massive fan of Parkers apart from the album with strings.

I also associate hard bop with a blues edge to it. Sharper.

Clifford Brown and Max Roach are superb.I don't think they recorded a bad album.

As for Miles Davis his albums of the the fifties Prestige/Columbia cover a number of bases.

 

#74 2022-05-11 06:51:48

AFS
Member
Posts: 2740

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Brownie of course died, like Wardell, too young.  Who knows what he might have achieved had he lived?

 

#75 2022-05-11 07:06:03

Spendthrift
Member
Posts: 659

Re: "We always wore it dead straight..."

Jesus. How many kids of 'Bop' are there?  No wonder I never made any headway with Jazz!

Thinking back, I'm pretty sure that having checked out and loved Tubby Hayes, Brubeck and Sonny Rollins' Alfie, I dashed headlong into what I thought was 'cooler' stuff (Miles, Dexter Gordon) and to be honest, thought it was a self indulgent racket. So I turned left and bought some Blue Note instrumental stuff, to find myself nodding off to hours of sleepy hammond noodling. So I investigated some vocal stuff and got assaulted by crazy ladies 'Shoo be shoo bee doobying' in my face. At which point I needed something calmer, and ended up with what I think you'd call middle class, middle of the road, after dinner jazz.

So I quietly backed away and haven't been back since. Maybe I should start again at square one?

 

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