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#1 2006-05-24 13:23:35

kenperes
Member
Posts: 584

The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#2 2006-05-24 13:49:34

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
Posts: 9345

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

I am still reading the book. It is action packed so I am going slowly.

 

#3 2006-05-24 17:29:55

kenperes
Member
Posts: 584

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

Marc-

Can you direct me to a picture of what you think is an absolutly proper fit at the collar.  If you would rather email me, you can get the address from FNB.

Thanks.

 

#4 2006-05-24 17:37:38

kenperes
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Posts: 584

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#5 2006-05-24 17:37:56

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
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Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#6 2006-05-24 17:43:12

Vaclav
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Posts: 1330

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#7 2006-05-24 17:48:09

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
Posts: 9345

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#8 2006-05-24 17:59:15

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
Posts: 9345

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#9 2006-05-24 18:19:04

kenperes
Member
Posts: 584

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#10 2006-05-24 18:34:08

Incroyable
Member
Posts: 2310

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

I haven't checked out the tome yet; however, from various comments made, it seems there are a lot of didactic rules, which are really pedantic, and subjective.

Perhaps, it's an attempt at tongue-in-cheek and in Machiavelli's tone?


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#11 2006-05-24 18:37:12

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
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Posts: 9345

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#12 2006-05-24 18:43:40

Incroyable
Member
Posts: 2310

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

Personally I don't see the evil that black shoes have. Now, red shoes, maybe.


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#13 2006-05-24 20:37:40

Incroyable
Member
Posts: 2310

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

The difficult aspect of this text would be whether to trust it as an actual, truth be told, dressing instruction book or merely some sort of a personal take on Machiavelli with underpinnings of sartorial affairs.

Note what shoe-pyramid guy says:

http://www.styleforum.net/showpost.php?p=193178&postcount=57


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#14 2006-05-24 22:28:33

Film Noir Buff
Dandy Nightmare
From: Devil's Island
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Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#15 2006-05-25 20:15:49

JLibourel
Member
Posts: 43

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

I think Manton has always had a tendency, both in this book and his internet postings, to blur the distinction between "The Rules," as he has set them forth, and what he personally likes or dislikes.

I was dismayed, for example, by his dismissive crack about green blazers, which are certainly a part of the Trad canon, defended by Flusser and Roetzel and (in these fora) by Tutee/Etutee.

His antipathy to burgundy calfskin was already well known to forum regulars. I fail to see how one leather dye job can look more "fake" than any other, as he implies. Are any shoes made from undyed leather, BTW? They would probably age very handsomely (although they would look ghastly at first).

The "no black shoes with odd jackets" dictum caught me flat-footed, however. I am not over-fond of black shoes for most applications, but that sure was new one on me.

Ditto, his decree that rubber soled shoes should never be paired with a necktie. I have many very handsome dress-casual shoes with discreet rubber soles that I shall continue to wear with a necktie. I shall even wear rubber soles with suit and tie if the occasion demands it and the weather is sufficiently adverse.

On balance, I will say that I found the bulk of the book very witty, highly entertaining and, in many respects, very informative. I'm certainly very glad to have it.

 

#16 2006-05-25 21:04:11

Incroyable
Member
Posts: 2310

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

Today I had the occasion to peruse the book. It was charmingly written in an anachronistic prose, and had various historical tidbits on clothing that were nicely revealing. However, since this is being marketed as a sort of guidance text along the lines of Flusser, Boyer, et al. the slightly arcane writing style possibly might alienate the people who would especially neccessitate this advice, if not unduly complicating the whole affair.

As has been mentioned previous, there are some rules that I do not think bodes well for a well-dressed man about town. For example, the author says that young people should eschew bow ties completey and instead fall back upon blue blazers, khakis, and other characteristic regalia of the casual preppy, which is a very limiting experience for a young person. He also dictates that colors should be avoided. Where is the fun in that?  As well, the book notes that aside from cufflinks, and a wristwatch all other jewelry should be relinquished. The classic diktat is a wedding band, a signet/intaglio ring, and a ring with a beautiful stone.

Kabbaz writes that this book is an update on long held (clothing) traditions but the author tenaciously makes claims of broad natures and justifies them with historical bases such as Benjamin Disraeli. Why are print ties gauche? Is there no there there to lease Gertrude Stein?

I recall reading an early post that the author made regarding the inception of this now completed project as a semi-joking meditation upon his first pair of Edward Greens. Now, if that were indeed the case, it would foretell the elemental nuances of this tome doesn't really constitute as an advice book; rather, it seems it's a case of totally divergent literary cum sartorial interpretation upon an Italian Renaissance political thinker. Therein lies the ambivalent worth of this as a strict advice text for CEO aspirants.

All, it is edifying on the basics of men's clothing and other essentials; yet, the veracity of some of its advice is particularly subjective. It has the fitness of a manifesto.

The author's biography was distinctly brief and non sequitur-ish.

Last edited by Incroyable (2006-05-26 00:28:52)


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#17 2006-05-26 02:59:01

Horace
Member
Posts: 6433

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

I'm looking forward to reading this book too.  I suppose it would fruitful to re-read <<The Prince>> first?  Secondly, I was under the impression that Manton had really tried to go beyond other writers in "documenting" or acknowledging the source of various rules.  There was a message on the SF.com a year or two back by him that was more than a little spefcific on this problem -- his intention rather and his method for gathering his knowlege.  He claimed to have looked at older texts and such but admitted that some of it was oral lore handed down from tailors, etc.   So is such the case?  How detailed are his footnotes, if any?  This type of documentation of the rules (their origins in concrete fashion or at least educated guesses) might be boring to some, but I'd find it interesting.

Let's remember too that, like Strauss, perhaps Manton has two sets of readers in mind.

I wish I had the time to make a very detailed study of say, all the various Ivy League fashions from the 20's on up -- investigating ads, photos, articles, interviews, people, etc. Because in just the few things I appear to have uncovered (or that were new to me at least, e.g. the Press Jacket as late as 1952 in three or four button, and in center, hook, or double vent), things do appear different than a more Orthodox, rigid view trad would have us believe.  And I include myself in that description.

To really do first-rate job in uncovering all these sources for rules, it would seem to me that you'd have to really fund the project with a lot of money.  Because these things would appear to take a lot of time.  I say we lobby for a very large government grant for Sartorial Studies.  Hell, what's another piece of pork in Congress.

Last edited by Horace (2006-05-26 03:02:45)


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#18 2006-05-26 06:30:17

Hartmut vR
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Posts: 70

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#19 2006-05-26 08:06:00

BraceBack Mountain
Member
Posts: 105

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#20 2006-05-26 08:44:59

BraceBack Mountain
Member
Posts: 105

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

Don't forget to post your amazon review. What's with the weird proof cover, did one of his editors decide to strike back?


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-images/0060891866/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0/104-6160387-4055146?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books&index=0#gallery

 

#21 2006-05-26 10:45:22

JLibourel
Member
Posts: 43

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#22 2006-05-26 15:41:31

Junior Astaire
Moderator
Posts: 271

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

I have been reading Manton's or rather Nicholas Antongiavanni's  book and I have to say I am a bit surprised at the number of different people, professions and walks of life he insults. Math teachers, plumbers, blue collar people, librarians, professors, carnival barkers, politicians, gangsters, detectives, heavy people and a lot of others just to name a few. Who is the ideal person for this book? Some dirtbag corporate attorney?

Also, he insults Americans an awful lot. It sounds like he is ashamed of them (If he is actually an American) and that he longs to be from somewhere else. Last I checked New Yorkers dressed great. Alright, we are a nation of over 300 millions, not everyone is Astaire. Have you walked around Naples recently? Not everyone there dresses like they shop at Marinella.

A lot of sweeping generalizations about rules, no footnotes and a very snob like mentality throughout the book on the assumption that he is in the know? Exactly what is his ironclad expertise based on? It sounds to me like he is on the outside looking in and still calling the shots. Maybe he picked up some style and beauty tips from Condee?

The grammar is ironclad, frankly it's a little tight cheeked. There are moments when I am not sure whether he is referring to the object or the subject. Its style is so dense and light on subject matter and proof that it made me nod off in spite of my wanting to finish it.

Who was the target audience for this book? A lot of the people he insults are some of the few who might buy this book. How many great men of fashion don’t ever read a book, and how many aspiring Math teachers might? If you buy this book for a college graduate, are they supposed to go find a drape suit or never be well dressed?

The whole anti Trad bias is a little thick too. He bashes the sack suit, the cordovan shoe, the bowtie. In favor of the drape? Who the hell makes that drape suit today? The two button suit is passable? So, unless you get this mythical Drape suit no one is well dressed? Do the Italians wear this or the Neapolitans?

Im sorry for my strong opinion but I really got the impression he was playing this super snob and we are the people who allowed him to develop that big head.

Yes its a play on the Prince, yes yes yes but who is going to know that really? Where is the disclaimer? in 5 years he may say he always intended it to mean exactly what it says.

I also do not understand what the correlation is with Dandies here. He starts out by saying a dandy is the essence of plainness but  throughout the book he discusses these advanced "dandy" steps or choices that seem out of the hum drum to me. I am not a dandy, I do like clothes and I do not like being talked down to.

That’s my 2 cents...for now.

 

#23 2006-05-26 16:03:18

Incroyable
Member
Posts: 2310

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

Yes, the textual subject is a bit of a mash-up and I really don't see how writing for Bush, Condoleeza Rice, et al is going to affect one's sartorial prowess or "dandyism" per se. In fact, it's distinctly non sequitur-ish, as I've mentioned.

To be frank here, I feel this is less of an advice text than a rather playful work on an otherwise somewhat arcane subject.

Dandyism is a difficult subject to broach; however, if one were to specifically categorize a dandy, I don't feel an essence of plainess is satisfactory. A Helmut Lang "dandy" maybe.

Also, the author is American as can be evidenced by his resume lest the political powers hire a Frenchman!

Last edited by Incroyable (2006-05-26 16:04:46)


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#24 2006-05-26 16:17:50

Junior Astaire
Moderator
Posts: 271

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

 

#25 2006-05-26 16:27:25

Incroyable
Member
Posts: 2310

Re: The Suit by Nicholas Antongiavanni

Last edited by Incroyable (2006-05-26 16:28:24)


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