Some observations:
The British like loud shirts and neckties that clash but have a rich look.
They seem to develop their own style earlier even if that style can be odd
No Brown suede in the city. The English are in many ways quite doctrinal about what they wear and where they wear it. Clothing isn’t costume or a palette to enjoy and work off of. Tailored clothing is something to wear because you have to or it is expected.
The English separate their lives into compartments. One wears something different in town vs. country. Even if the town and country are states of mind rather than actual locations. Thus owning brown shoes are the shabby little secret of more than one Englishman. For Americans to understand some of the undertows that pull at the English with regards to clothes, we have to understand that to wear a tan suit to the office in London or brown suede shoes carries the equivalent stigma of asking an American to go to his office in a tutu.
The English have color, fabric weight, texture, finishing, and all items of clothing neatly filed into useful segments. In some ways this limits the choices but in other ways it creates a comfortable world of selections for a given function. If you go to someone’s country house, it is tweed jacket, tattersall shirt, moleskin pants, double soled, pebble grained country calf boots in brown, wool tie and at the office it is striped suit, striped shirt and whatever ties. It is important for the Englishman to appear not to care about his clothes. From one point of view it appears that the English identify their character and station via their clothes.
When they are in the “colonies” they will wear more flamboyant or lightly colored clothes than they would ever dream of sporting on Albion. Silk suits, tan suits, white shoes are all fair game when in Borneo.
In America it’s quite different, We are the colonies! 365 days a year.
Americans like a more serendipitous style, they match a lot more. Brown suede shoes have become a favorite. Animals on ties seem to be more favored and Italian styles whether Milanese or Neapolitan. Even if they will salivate when you say Savile Row, they seem to prefer the Italian mode.
Deep in our national imagination we tend to identify with the fast and tough talking detectives in film noir as a more masculine, ironically humored approach to clothes.
I think also Englishmen and American men have come from different evolutionary branches. The English style is derived mostly from their upper classes and the only lower class influences are the occasional mod or punk infusing a little bit of shock. The men seem to not care about matching colors or textures or patterns and just worry bout looking smart. There doesn’t seem to be any apologies about a class system there, so wearing your school tie on a wild shirt is permissible. Though it seems that the real English shirt is like a Bengal or butcher stripe with a single color stripe, those wilder shirts being sold mainly abroad.
Also, the English walk differently, they aspire to a different life or lifestyle, which affects posture and gait and even the lilt of their voices.
In America, we took a lot from the English/Scottish upper-class and then it was mutated by a variety of influences that haven’t touched the English male. First, the concept of the popular, carefree man as personified by Fred Astaire, was taken from African American males. They couldn’t appear on screen and Astaire, who performed with them off screen, appropriated their demeanors and disseminated them throughout the country and into the male attitude. African Americans couldn’t afford lots of clothes or even the best, but they were interested in clothes as a class raising device. Their approach was to infuse, attitude and style into the ensemble. Thus, hat brim angles, and the way one walked in a suit became as important as the cut and fabrics. An American zeitgeist was bon and again spread by whites in the jazz age.
Also, we underplay the amount of influence women's fashions and gay fashion has had on the American male. The female penchant for matching things is an American male concern. Matching tie to shirt, matching belt to shoes or braces to shirt, or even tie to suit! The concern with matching has its roots in that movie "American Gigolo", and the rise of designers here, many of whom were trained to design for women first. The women’s clothing market dwarfs the men’s clothing market and the male collections are often an offshoot from a given fashion house. If it is true that a lot of gay men find their way into these design houses and design for men then many of their beliefs are also stamped into the collections of what makes a man better dressed or attractive. But whether or not that can be measured, definitely the gay communities attention to fit (and fitness) for sexual enhancement has changed the American male's body and the way and the reasons he gets dressed.
Gangster movies are another definite contribution to the American Male's approach to attire. And, now the Milanese and Neapolitans are moving in and taking over, it’s like a series of civilized style invasions here in the USA while England has remained relatively untouched. And so, the American mélange creates a very different style from their British cousins.
So much to agree with that I'll just say YES.
Miles.
great thread. sounds spot on.
The lack of 'attitude' in the average Englishman's dress is an interesting point.
We do have 'attitude' in England but it belongs to all the marginalised groups. All our minorities seem to have style, but then is that just when you compare them to the great stodgy majority?
Not sure...
I suspect not.
I think you have to actually have an attitude in the first place to dress with attitude...
Hmmmmmm -
M.
Very interesting comparison. As noted, does ring true
Our real criminals are all corporate men now... The style is gone...
Gay guys still dress well over here... So do Jewish Guys...
Most of what I know about 'Trad' comes from Gay & Jewish friends.
I first heard about 'J.Simons' from a Jewish Guy in a Gay club. I'd walked past the place for about 4 years but never noticed it.
I first visited Brooks on Madison with the same friend.
I 'invented' 'Gay Trads' for no other reason than to make him laugh.
He is Godfather to my daughter...
Cool, stylish, and even more of a piss-taker than me.
C.A.D. he loves, 'Trad' strikes him as the funniest thing ever.
Wish he would post on the internet, but then like he says it's "just a fairground for farts, isn't it?".
Goodness, I know some crude people... ;-)
M.
Icouldn't find any stills from the film I'll Sleep When I'm Dead. Good clothes in that.
But this from a premier. I like the roll of the lapel and the third button
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dailyceleb.com/thumbs/tn.DC.165563.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dailyceleb.com/production/index.php%3Fview%3Devent%26eid%3D2242&h=199&w=132&sz=11&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=mtzHtmye73LdpM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dclive%2Bowen%2Bi%2527ll%2Bsleep%2Bwhen%2Bim%2Bdead%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
This thread has so much to comment on that I hardly know where to start. The first thing that strikes me, however, is the refreshingly frank and completely unbiased recognition of the roles that blacks, Jews, and gays have played in the realm of male style. I come from a tradition, eastern European Jewish immigrant men’s retail in the southern US, where “dress British, think Yiddish” was not just a clever phrase, but a guiding principle. Both of my grandfathers came to the US as young men in the late 1800s and worked their whole lives in men’s retail, maternal grandfather in clothing and haberdashery and paternal grandfather in footwear. My father started out in the retail shoe business and eventually worked with my maternal grandfather in his/their men’s shops A significant portion of their clientele was African American and two of their best employees, in sales and display, were gay. Born in the mid 1940s and growing up through the 1950s and early 1960s, I lived amidst the interplay of all of these factors. Salesmen, fitters, tailors, pressers, and stock boys were my after school attendants until I joined them as an employee. Even after the deaths of both my grandfather and father and the demise of that business, I worked for a time in men’s retail to support my education habit. One of the secondary joys of being a litigator for more than thirty years is that I have been afforded the means and opportunity to indulge my enjoyment of/fascination with matters sartorial.
I think that American men have had, at least since the 1930s, the broadest leeway in what they wear and how they wear it, though fewer and fewer have taken advantage of that good fortune except, perhaps, to become more and more sloppy. Hence, the ever increasing disappearance of the small establishments that in the past afforded men of all but the most modest means the chance to dress well. Look around you on the streets of big cities and small towns (my work takes me to both) and you will see woefully little to admire in the way men are dressed. And I have been almost equally disappointed with what I have observed in London, let alone the English countryside. Italy seems to be the last bastion of male elegance, with many from workmen to boulevardiers apparently concerned with and successful in their appearance.
I am lucky in that I am able to dress off the rack (I’m that average size that patterns are cut to--5' 10", 165 lbs, 42 reg, 10D shoe), and it is still possible to do so smartly. Anyway, my genetically retail background would prompt me to buy OTR unless fit were a big problem or quality were unavailable. Though I am straight and white, the compliments that I routinely get are most often from African American and gay men. Indeed, my wife often suggests that I am both black and gay, her own observations to the contrary. White, straight colleagues and acquaintances recognize that I am well dressed but often seem to think it an odd quirk. Still, when faced with a situation in which they, or more often their female significant others, feel they need to raise the level of their appearance, they will ask where I get my clothes. They seem to think that the source of my attire explains my appearance. When I try to offer some rudimentary guidance on what it takes to be well dressed, and I’m not talking money or brands, I rarely encounter much interest. Hence, my pleasure at finding this forum. Maybe I'll write about Brit vs. Yank later.
Last edited by Daniele (2006-07-13 04:03:09)
I should have included Jewish contributions as well. So thanks for adding that guys. My observation is that something in the Jewish drive for excellence makes them remarkably gifted when it comes to selecting, creating or procuring luxury items. Probably it started out similarly to African Americans who wanted to be viewed as better quality by those they interacted with. However, now it is at a totally different level with RL the leading example of an outsider doing it better than the herd he's hankering after ever could.
But there is definitely an understanding there of quality and comfort and style.
I think youd have to throw in Irish Americans at some point in the past as well. Not the Anglo-Irish mind you but the city DA types from the old movies. They seemed to have that "snappy" dapper approach to wearing a suit and a fedora. Basically, it sounds like the minority groups (when I say minority, I mean from a state of mind perspective) understand the concept of style better than the group itself. It's fascinating.
I like FNB's comment about the carefree life of the American man about town...
That sense of freedom, you know?
Not sure we have that in England.
I wonder if the DOW (HIM again) wasn't more than a little 'infected' with that longing?
For my own small part I can see the love of intelligent rule-breaking in most stylish men. Most truely intelligent men, period.
Knowing the rules is a must. Living by them seems... well, ... pedantic?
But then, just like Constantine and Oscar, I have every intention of having as much fun as I am allowed to & then becoming a death-bed pentitent.
You'll know I'm poorly when I start insisting that suede should never be worn east of Chiswick.
M.
It's topics like this which I find most interesting here. I find there is more thought and less self-congratulatry chit chat than on a couple of the other forums.
Have Asians contributed in Any way to this mixture of American style? I see a lot of well dressed or expensively dressed Japanese men about.
Last edited by Fritz the Cat (2012-06-20 11:19:44)
Well, the English do value eccentricity, mad dogs and englishmen and all of that. I don't see that so much on the continent and in American culture.
It is a distinctive English virtue, and I am glad to say, I've got it.
Great man, J S Mill; too little considered in the current age, with its creeping over-regulation. But I don't think that Mill meant eccentricity in dress. He dressed unexceptionably for his time. The eccentricity that he meant was the eccentricity which might be seen in holding one's own values and standards, even if that means challenging current thinking. In my experience, the truly eccentric seldom advertize themselves in their dress; not least because that would take the edge off the proper expression of their views.