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#1 2009-03-09 09:49:10

chetmiles
Member
Posts: 1099

Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

I always enjoyed reading the old JS website - and like the new one very much, too - in particular JS's comments about UK Ivy in the 60s - as opposed to the Carnaby mod.  'A terribly self-conscious look' - something like that, right? 
Most of what we wear is pleasurable unto ourselves; would we agree?  Women may like guys in suits but do they know shit from sugar let alone natural shoulder from padded, pure new wool from shiny-arsed acrylic (or whatever)?  What I'm wearing today wouldn't rate a second glance in my town:  navy blue cashmere v-neck, B.D. Baggies check shirt, Paul Stuart cords - yet I remain conscious of it.  My madras jacket, worn in the summer with white shirt, jeans and Weejuns may draw the odd look; but, overall, how self-conscious are we?  We are, after all, Europeans; and, presumably, the guys on Terry Lean's epic posting, are almost all Americans, especially east coast.  How do we, in our English towns, capture the absolute vitality of it all?  I gave up Fred Perry and Lacoste for Harvard Basketball and Brooks polo shirts and will sport white FOTL t under a Troy Guild button-down - all in order to try and look American.  Am I missing the point somehow? 

Jim, how did those guys you met all those years ago, the ones who first took you into JS, appear to you?  Natural or not?

 

#2 2009-03-09 10:00:28

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

Relaxed, at ease, natural. Really at home with themselves.

- Established North London Antiques dealers of the HomoHebrew tribe. Bless 'em.

... But to be crtitical they were cocky with it too. 'Facey'. They knew they had 'The Knowledge' & I didn't.

My look is entirely studied & contrived. The result of research and endless enjoyable late night conversations.

To mentor a newbie is one of the best things you can do I think. How many generations has John Simons influenced now?

 

#3 2009-03-09 10:13:43

chetmiles
Member
Posts: 1099

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

I must admit, in the days I fancied myself as a 'mod', Jim, in the Stevie Marriott/Vespa/existentialist/white Levis sense of it, I felt 'stiffer' (down, Cheeky Monkey!), so more self-conscious; and went through a short phase of changing clothes several times a day (until the missus began complaining about the mountain of shirts!).  I always looked upon that as more Anglo-European than Ivy: the jazz influence, sure, through CM as well as the musicians themselves; and blinked a bit when first stepping through the door at Russell Street, because here were guys more like my Dad:  John chatting about Chet or Stan Kenton, for example.  It was the unflashiness of it all that appealed: the beautiful understatement: the ambience (the dank smell of the basement...) 
I guess a lot of us have been absorbing our influences from movies and album sleeves for years.  I think my look too is studied and contrived and I have had to force myself into not trying too hard.  That has meant a lot of revision and reflection - back to personal evolution.  The ideal is now to look like a college professor who is thinking about - rather than on - his vacation...  But no bow-tie - never, ever!  My wife and kids would laugh their tits off...

 

#4 2009-03-09 10:23:39

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

yes.

i'd miss my wife's tits too.

... ... ... ...

 

#5 2009-03-09 10:46:05

AQG
Member
From: The Sticks
Posts: 1306

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

I've missed my wife's since our fourth date.

 

#6 2009-03-09 12:35:09

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

"Let me?" - I've not heard that for years...   wink

 

#7 2009-03-09 14:23:52

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

I do get the drift alright but am still bewildered by the supposed self-consciousness ? Why be like that when being passionate about it in the first instance ? I truly can't get my head around that one to be honest but will be back on this thread no doubt....  The contrived bit is alien to me anyhow and that may be where the difference lies between , say, your approach and mine ( perhaps ) when we're talking style in general.... I realise I need to expand on this and I will...

 

#8 2009-03-09 14:43:44

1966
1,966% Ivy
Posts: 2382

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#9 2009-03-09 14:54:40

1966
1,966% Ivy
Posts: 2382

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

Last edited by 1966 (2009-03-09 15:01:50)

 

#10 2009-03-10 01:18:13

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

What I meant was why make a fuzz about what basically is a simple artform i.e. picking the clothes you like. The idea of looking smart in a casual way makes sense ( to me ) and will continue to do so. Why would I want to look like an American or anyone else who's not from the U.S. for that matter ? I've mentioned people in The Netherlands sometimes mistake me for being British, but that's just an impression they get which happens almost by accident I'd say....

I just go around the shops and pick what suits me really ( whilst of course being pretty selective about it ), I don't necessarily buy stuff for rarity's sake either, let alone vintage and the idea of so-called elitism regarding schmutter I find laughable to be honest. Which is not to say I don't appreciate what people ( on this thread ) are into, far from it in fact. Might just be a different wavelength, it's all about a certain sensibility after all.....nothing more, I think...

Last edited by Alex Roest (2009-03-10 01:23:53)

 

#11 2009-03-10 01:32:28

chetmiles
Member
Posts: 1099

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

I know what I'm wearing but other people don't know.  Nor do they care.  To them, if they register it all, it's just a guy looking boring in his - for example - tan cord jacket (what's that hidden button all about, then?), crew neck jumper, chinos and brogues, doing his shopping.  But I think there is a minor tradition, going back to the 40s at least, of British guys wanting to look like Yanks - Ronnie Scott did, I think.  The suits, the ties - a bit bebop, a touch Hollywood.  Then the kind of lads Kevin Rowland talks about circa '68, let alone the rockabilly influences of the 50s.  John Simons often looks to me rather continental (although I don't run into him very often), whereas Jeff looks, I think, more American.  And I guess some Americans and Frenchmen and Italians like to be mistaken for English.

 

#12 2009-03-10 01:49:29

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#13 2009-03-10 01:50:56

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#14 2009-03-10 01:58:02

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#15 2009-03-10 02:57:26

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#16 2009-03-10 03:19:04

1966
1,966% Ivy
Posts: 2382

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

Me too, I'm putting a lot of effort into an effortless appearance... seems to me we're all talking the same thing here.

 

#17 2009-03-10 03:47:01

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#18 2009-03-10 04:14:13

1966
1,966% Ivy
Posts: 2382

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

We know you frequent department stores buying asian made colourful stuff with logos at retail prices Alex tongue

 

#19 2009-03-10 04:18:38

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#20 2009-03-10 04:26:04

1966
1,966% Ivy
Posts: 2382

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

When we're having that beer, I shall bring some shades so I won't be blinded wink

 

#21 2009-03-10 04:59:57

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

 

#22 2009-03-10 05:03:10

1966
1,966% Ivy
Posts: 2382

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

*Trawls Ebay for Persols*

cool

 

#23 2009-03-10 05:18:35

Prof Kelp
Professor of Ivy
Posts: 1033

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

I find myself in a dilemma at times......I like the style of Ivy or elements of it ( I don't do topsiders or any deck shoes...), I also like other influences Anglo and Euro, in fact in todays world as a layman I'd be hard to really pull all these influences apart! But sometimes I like to wear a "look" for want of a better expression, coz I like that look and coz I feel good in that look, simple as! But I know what Alex says when he talks about "why would I want to look like an American". When your younger we just do stuff, I guess as we get older we want to be true to ourselves and also wear what we like the look of, without us looking foolish. My movement towards a more "Ivy" look is that I think it enables me to wear a "look" that I love and bring in fashionable elements to it. I've said before, I like colour in knitwear, a slimmer silhouette, I will wear labels (if its subtle and good quality and good style)etc. Ivy and to some extent Mod (60's fashion) provide me with the fundamentals, the framework if you like to then play with or tweak to my sense of style.

PK


http://thetownoutside.tumblr.com

 

#24 2009-03-10 05:49:55

Alex Roest
Member
From: The Hague, The Netherlands
Posts: 2165

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

Last edited by Alex Roest (2009-03-10 05:53:03)

 

#25 2009-03-10 07:08:39

chetmiles
Member
Posts: 1099

Re: Gentlemen, how self-conscious are we?

None of us 12 and 13 year olds really had a clue what we were wearing around, say, 1972.  You copied others - who were copying Adam Faith - and spent your pocket money in the boutiques that seemed to be everywhere then, or on market stalls.  We - or I - was probably more self-conscious then at any time before pulling on a madras jacket...  Girls were the ultimate objective, and for any chance of that you had to have the centre-parting, the poncy shirt and the loafers.  Ivy League schmivy league!!  Who'd ever heard of it?  The French look?  We didn't even know where France was, we pasty-faced toerags worshipping Charlie George...  It was all just what you wore - if your mum would let you.  Where I live is still two years behind everyone else, and the soul boys shake their tousled heads in wonder at anyone travelling to London now to buy a shirt or two...

 

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