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#51 2009-03-25 20:21:52

redmanca
Member
Posts: 82

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

lol That's fair enough I guess.

I'll just say one more thing that I forgot in my last post: everything you do/wear/talk about makes a statement about how you want to be perceived. You know, everything is a system of signs without positive terms and all that good stuff. So to single out those three things is unfair, again because you don't know all the other things.

But like I said a few posts ago, I'll probably go back to lurking soon, since I'm not sure we'll ever see eye to eye, and that's OK with me.

Conor

 

#52 2009-03-26 06:32:38

Matt
Ivy Original.
Posts: 332

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

Good thread that could go indefinitely, and never run out of thoughtful posts.

A couple of unrelated thoughts.

I don't see any of these posts as a criticism of a member of the Forum. Just indications of the views of those that post. We have all seen examples of those with misguided values, trying to be something that they aren't. No evidence of that here, in my view.

You can spot these with posts elsewhere in the form of; "what tennis racket is, trad?" , you can poke fun at these posts by a follow up asking about the most trad condom, etc. Nonsense. Likewise, which college, fraternity, etc is the most trad. Who the hell cares, it is about clothes, and those that are interested in them.

Some of these posts, elsewhere, are from seemingly harmless people that just take themselves too seriously. The funniest example was the guy that was in the waiting area at an airport, and walked around in his decked out best, and no one noticed. One of the replies that put this in perspective was the post that the OP read like a suicide note.

Several good points here, in a few words, in my view: "there are no short cuts" ;RS. Should be a plaque over most desks with this engraved, in bold letters.  Whether you are trying to learn a profession, how to understand good jazz, learn how to juggle, etc. At some point, it becomes blindingly obvious, that hard way is always the easy way.

Another thought that seems to come up is captured in the US Army recruiting slogan "Be the best you can be", or some such. Great advice. It is why most of us are here. We want to continue to improve, to the best of out ability and means. The statement is not "Be something that you aren't". That is where many of us rebel a bit.

As RS says, you can talk to someone who claims to be an expert on jazz, the financial world, etc. and tell within a couple of minutes if there is any depth. If not, move on. Some seem to believe that if you can fake sincerity, you have it made. It can be spotted at a great distance.

There are a lot of examples here, to me, of the plus side of this philosophy. People that I don't know, and will never know. However, their posts indicate that they know a lot about the subject that we discuss here, and are perfectly comfortable with who they are. Hope you like it, but take it or leave it.

Take a look over time at the posts of rsmeyer, Tom22, Patrick and many others. To me, examples of a wealth of knowledge, backed up with a life style that speaks loudly of the real thing. As the saying goes "people that are comfortable in their own skin".

 

#53 2009-03-26 06:47:21

Decline & Fall
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 850

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

Matt, bang on.

Redmanca, quick thought b/c I think the initial debate became a bit confused.

Aspiring to dress better (or even be a better person) = good (who would disagree w/ that?)
Aspiring to be a twat and enlisting one's clothing choices to one's aspirational mission = bad

By way of example, see Wasp 101.


"I like bars just after they open in the evening. When the air inside is still cool and clean and everything is shiny. The first quiet drink of the evening in a quiet bar-that's wonderful."
— Raymond Chandler

 

#54 2009-03-26 07:29:13

Natural Sole Brother
Ivy, naturally.
Posts: 782

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

Old Bean = Trad
Old Bean! = Tradly

 

#55 2009-03-26 07:44:15

Moose Maclennan
Ivy Inspiration
From: Hernando's Hideaway
Posts: 4577

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

^^
very clever!

 

#56 2009-03-26 07:55:08

Patrick
Member
Posts: 2653

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -


Otter : Take it easy, I'm pre-law.
Boon : I thought you were pre-med.
Otter : What's the difference?

 

#57 2009-03-26 08:00:25

AQG
Member
From: The Sticks
Posts: 1306

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#58 2009-03-26 08:15:01

chetmiles
Member
Posts: 1099

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

'Trad' should be left back where it belongs: in a few foetid cellars around Oxford Street, where middle-class youth played at being oppressed negro trumpeters.  As to clothing, well...  it sounds ugly, at least to these ears, just as 'preppy' has a whiff of contempt about it.  I remember my old man taking a trip to New England with my request for Brooks Brothers shirts - dismissed as 'preppy' by his host, so I got some Hershey bars instead.  Thanks a bunch, Dave!

 

#59 2009-03-26 09:30:52

redmanca
Member
Posts: 82

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#60 2009-03-26 09:58:47

Decline & Fall
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 850

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

A further attempt to break this discussion apart. There a few debates going on here that are worth separating:

* What has a greater claim to legitimacy: trad or ivy (or "hasn't this horse been dead a long time and when can we finally bury it?")
* How far can ivy/trad style be pushed into peacock territory and still work as good style (or alternatively titled on the merits of the lime green bow-tie)
* Do trad/ivy clothes have any remaining significance as symbols of a long-past East-coast patrician style and isn't there something absurdly elitist/pathetic about wanting to act like that (Wasp 101, again)

I think throwing theory at the first question can be quite productive ("we're all in a simulacrum, man," D&F says to himself b/w bong hits). However, I prefer not having to footnote my conversations in MLA/APA/Chicago. Frankly, I've seen no evidence you're guilty of the third and the second is a legitimate question on which reasonable people can disagree but have a fruitful discussion.

On a side note, I did a bit of searching to find a particularly egregious Wasp 101 post and found a rather ridiculous one about some fisticuffs he entered into with his neighbor b/f his father came over for dinner, which was pretty funny by the by. However, I didn't find a single post that summed up why his blog is so ridiculous. Can I get some help on this one?


"I like bars just after they open in the evening. When the air inside is still cool and clean and everything is shiny. The first quiet drink of the evening in a quiet bar-that's wonderful."
— Raymond Chandler

 

#61 2009-03-26 10:15:10

bandofoutsiders
Member
Posts: 432

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#62 2009-03-26 10:26:12

redmanca
Member
Posts: 82

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

Last edited by redmanca (2009-03-26 10:26:43)

 

#63 2009-03-26 11:30:41

AQG
Member
From: The Sticks
Posts: 1306

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#64 2009-03-26 14:17:39

Decline & Fall
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 850

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

Last edited by Decline & Fall (2009-03-26 14:20:43)


"I like bars just after they open in the evening. When the air inside is still cool and clean and everything is shiny. The first quiet drink of the evening in a quiet bar-that's wonderful."
— Raymond Chandler

 

#65 2009-03-26 14:58:38

AQG
Member
From: The Sticks
Posts: 1306

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#66 2009-03-26 16:11:09

ScarletStreet
Member
Posts: 540

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

I can't help but wonder if the North Americans who argue "the russell" position have our own movie poster.


"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it." -- H.L. Mencken

 

#67 2009-03-26 17:10:21

ScarletStreet
Member
Posts: 540

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

I am in agreement with you D&F about throwing theory at the first one. I really wanted to avoid a battle of college educations. I haven't done that in a long time, and never on the internet. The second debate is going to end up a lot like your movie posters. Both sides will be reduced to the others' prejudices. The hipsters vs. the preppy frat boys. The third was hashed out so much on Andy and might be typified by Wasp 101. My criticism of certain rules of traditional American dress, and its my own, is that a new conception of elite was being created. I am not sure anyone who posts on the Curriculum is trying to appear old money New England. All though this conception has to be linked to that Harris guy, I doubt anyone really believes he was totally on the level at this point. There are all kind of cottage industries that spring up to cater to men that get excited by the "old fashioned" way of doing anything. To me the debate lies in at what point does it become play acting, and what point is someone just trying to identify with a group.  I suppose in this day and age it only makes sense that when one needs to forge an identity or be part of a community that the internet is where they turn. I don't know if there is a final answer.  I know that I personally find both distasteful. It's why I hate blogs that are about the writer.  There is nothing more tedious than bearing witness to somebody defining themselves for the whole world .  Just my opinion, though.

Robert


"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it." -- H.L. Mencken

 

#68 2009-03-26 19:29:07

Quay
Member
From: the Gracious Days
Posts: 545

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -


"It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive."
- Mark Twain

 

#69 2009-03-26 21:52:52

redmanca
Member
Posts: 82

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

Last edited by redmanca (2009-03-27 05:37:33)

 

#70 2009-03-27 06:33:20

Decline & Fall
Ivyist At Large
Posts: 850

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -


"I like bars just after they open in the evening. When the air inside is still cool and clean and everything is shiny. The first quiet drink of the evening in a quiet bar-that's wonderful."
— Raymond Chandler

 

#71 2009-03-27 19:45:25

ScarletStreet
Member
Posts: 540

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

I saw the picture before the text in your post D&F. I thought maybe you answered my request for a movie picture of the North Americans arguing the English position. Nice blog suggestion as well... As for the other stuff. I read two blogs with regularity. The Weejun and Heavy Tweed Jacket. All though I have seen nearly every blog floating around the Ivy/Trad interweb. I like the the concept of "look at all this cool shit". I'm a nerd when it comes to the details of my interests. I guess what I was getting at is I get bored by hearing about people's lives. We live in a culture that is so self obsessed and voyeuristic at the same time. It's a little much for me.  I think in my rush to judgement by what people post I sometimes forget or choose to ignore that a lot of people do like that sort of stuff. Otherwise these exercises in vanity would have no audience. That being said I have "met" people online that are very interesting as people but it always starts off with me realizing there are  mutual interests when they are just posting about music, film, clothes etc. Our likes and dislikes certainly say things about us, it's when all of them start say the same thing about someone that I tend to start the eye rolling. In regards to these debates, I simply wish that the clothes could be about the clothes. I understand why they can't be for some people, but I just don't see things like that.

Robert


"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it." -- H.L. Mencken

 

#72 2009-03-27 22:19:24

Quay
Member
From: the Gracious Days
Posts: 545

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -


"It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with confidence, stands a good chance to deceive."
- Mark Twain

 

#73 2009-03-30 06:00:59

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#74 2009-04-03 08:27:08

Taylor McIntyre
Son of Ivy...
Posts: 342

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

#75 2009-04-03 09:20:14

AQG
Member
From: The Sticks
Posts: 1306

Re: The Trad & The Tradly -

 

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