Last edited by Moose Maclennan (2009-04-07 03:33:22)

Important to say that America has lots of great guys too.

To throw in my two bits here, I don't really see why there has to be so much American slagging--and RS, you know I love you, but frankly you're the guilty party here--as in "America wishes they had what we've got", "they've got to deal w/ all that OPH" and "it's more pure over here".

Frankly, a lot of what makes this all possible is the internet, in the sense that we're all able to acquire a lot more info on this stuff much more quickly and benefit from each other's knowledge and research to figure things out.

I could be wrong but I asked exactly how common the ivy look was over there and the answers I got suggested that it is pretty much a cult thing (both CM and Weejun essentially made this point, with the Weejun going so far as to say that he hadn't seen someone with a similar look for about six months and when he did there was an actual realization moment). I'm a Canadian so my perception is a little different but the hardcore ivy thing is I think a cult thing everywhere (note the similarity b/w CM's posts about knowing that others don't know what he is on about w/ his understated look and BoO's post about how people don't have the sensibility to get his look either). I'm not getting into Japan b/c frankly if we believe everything we read every artist seems to have a following of extremely dedicated fans and every fashion gets hardcore devotion over there too (see further, Gothic Lolita). A lot of what you may be dismissing is frankly khaki dad wear, and the people who are rocking that don't wax poetic about the glory days of ivy. I imagine that it is a lot less self-conscious than all that. Occasionally ivy bubbles into the mainstream b/c fashion designers being fashion designers, they get their inspirations from the past; so every few years, someone is going to sing the praises of the penny loafer or bright polo shirts or khakis. 

I do buy that the J. Simons thing is a pretty much unique phenomenon, and one to be treasured for sure. However, America has stores (Cable Car, Andover Shop, O'Connell's, etc.) that while they may not serve you espresso coffee and talk to you about modernist architecture (and I'm a fan of any store that can do that!) will certainly do you right, clothes-wise. I think one can choose to shop at those stores and pretty much ignore the other nonsense, which frankly is more predominant on the internet than in the casual conversations b/w friends, no?

I guess what I am getting at is that I'm much more in favour of celebrating what we're on about and discussing the details of that than bringing things to a fever pitch about how Americans have supposedly lost the plot. I find that stuff a bit alienating. Which is all a long-winded effort to say that I prefer to think we're a bunch of individuals of very diverse backgrounds who share a common obsessive interest. I don't really find anything productive in saying that people from X are more hardcore than people from Y, especially since the evidence of this forum is that our best informed members come from a large variety of places.

To quote from a recent article on the revivalist Americana workwear fad:

"For the foreigners who instigated the fad, sturdy American gear has long evoked a distant, idealized culture. As a child, Suzuki would watch “The Graduate” and obsess over Dustin Hoffman’s parka and Jack Purcells. “Americana represented a new, almost utopian viewpoint for me,” he says. With the recent decline in our security, industry and standing, that nostalgia for a prelapsarian America (and the durable domestic goods that defined it) seems to have settled over the stylish set here at home."

I think the allure of Ivy in Britain has a bit of this dynamic, although maybe less so than the Japanese appropriation of American workwear.  JFK, Jazz, mid-century hipsters in NYC, Ellsworth Kelly, Frank O' Hara, Paul Newman.  Most people on this forum are midcentury fetishists in a way.  And I think that sort of nostalgia comes easily to those who don't live in America, not because they're out of touch with reality, but simply because it is easier to have an abstract, nostalgic idea of a place if you don't have to get up there every morning and go to work.  I think the Ivy of "Talk Ivy" and the Ivy of Trad are alike in their nostalgia, but simply differ in their points of reference.  Andy Trad points to a "bygone era" of lawyers and businessmen who dressed "appropriately" and maintained "standards"...the whole thing is a fetish of responsibility and propriety.  Those among the ivy enthusiats who are more into the moderist, art/jazz/architecture aspect simply choose a different totem.

Wanting to look like Artie Schlessinger and wanting to look like Dexter Gordon are not unrelated impulses.

isnt it always a case of "grass is greener" then?

When I first got into skinhead in the mid 80s, we were a bunch of kids trying to look "british" because it was foreign and seemed cool.  To be "American" was boring since you were essentially surrounded by it, literally and figuratively.  So probably the same for you lot over there, being "British" might seem staid, whereas things "American" had that interesting edge that you werent brought up with

I see the same thing with Americans being Japophiles, and Japanese obsessing over any and all things American.  We are all more interested in what we don't have

Ironically then by becoming obsessed with "British cool" as skinheads, it all came around full circle to Americana and a renewed interest in "American cool". 

It's like being a right winger, and being so right wing that you end up being a left winger.  kinda. sort of. maybe not

Mistah Kurtz, he dead.

A penny for the Old Guy.

EGF

I guess Americans always took what they had for granted - why shouldn't they?  But the British obsession with America is obviously far wider than Ivy League - Ivy League is simply, for a tiny minority, the outward aspect of their obsession.  Growing up in the 60s, American movies and music were always more fascinating than the home-grown: 'Batman' on TV and the Monkees on the tinny record player had more appeal than 'Dr.Who' or the Beatles.  I was addicted to DC, and, later, Marvel comics.  Sure I read the 'Beano', but Superman was the tops! 
John Simons, older than most of us on here, was listening to either American jazz and big band or British jazz and big band that was by its very nature American-influenced.  The Americans were over here in great numbers during and after the war, and the mod thing grew partly out of their presence.  Thus began the on-off mod/skinhead/northern soul tradition of which Ivy Leaguers are but a small but significant part, having in common a devotion to black music, short hair, button-down shirts and loafers - at the very least. 
Americans, you either accept and understand this or you don't, it makes no difference.  UK Ivy is always going to have that seperateness, based upon the British love for, say, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Arthur Alexander, Little Anthony, Jackie Wilson, even Motown pop for some. 
Partly it began with envy - yes, envy - who wouldn't be an American?  Okay, I know I'm going to get an argument, and that's fine, but the US is still to me the finest country in the world and by loving jazz and TNSL I am celebrating shared values through listening and wearing; nothing more, nothing less.

There are a lot of good points in this thread and there is nothing much to add that has not been said better by nearly every commentator. One point though. I would like to think this forum is a tribute to what this style has to offer. I think Trad is a joke too, but outside of the internet who really cares. Suburbanites in the United States do all sorts of silly things, I'm not going to get overly upset about this one. I can understand being upset about a perversion of a style that is near and dear to our hearts, but to me it's no different than any crappy punk, ska, metal etc, band or jazz artist that gets props while the originators are ignored or forgotten. An enthusiast, obsessive, fan, whatever can either become disillusioned and go in a different direction or they can keep on keeping on having the knowledge they are true to their roots and their conception of something. I would like to think what makes this forum unique and the best the net has to offer on the subject is that none of us just found this style on the internet, we just found a group of diverse individuals  who had similar tastes in clothing(and other things). While I would much rather read a thousand clothing specific threads, I do like these threads because they remind how cool and smart most of the posters on here are. The forum and the posters are an invaluable resource for those of us into all this business.