Sorry now I started all of this...

I don't know the American take on all of this; nor, really, the continental.  Ivy League, when confined to the Harvard/Yale/Princeton etc. grouping, must have been snobbish, elitist, call it what you will:  Andover, the little snot-noses who pissed off Holden Caulfield etc.  Post-war, in some ways, as the advertising men got to work on it, it became fashion, and then faded as fashions will.  The 50s became the 60s: and we all know what happened then:  Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Vietnam, Mayor Daley and all the rest. 
In England, though, it was all about inside, arcane knowledge - it still is.  Snobbery.  Elitism.  'Suss'.  Being In The Know.  Punk was amazingly snobbish, but almost more so were the elements swirling around it, who'd witnessed the Roxy scene (the club, not the group) early on and found it limiting and a tad juvenile.  John Lydon must have been feeling that way by '78 at the latest.  Even in the circles I moved around 'hip' was snobbish and snobbish was 'hip': we began treating it as an in-joke.  It was 'hip', by late '77-early '78, to like James Brown, the more beatnik forms of bebop, and the kind of stuff Chris Sullivan was pushing.  It was 'hip' to go French: read Camus and walk around with a Gauloise glued to your bottom lip: all slouch and grimace.  New York - and hence Brooks etc. - was inaccessible: most of us were the sons of manual labourers or office workers, the products of the comprehensive system.  Rare soul and jazz-funk was another swirl before the mod revival came along:  Northern Soul was a bit prole but it still had its adherents. 

The trick was to be stylish and to experiment: shawl sweaters, Cuban heels, bum-freezers, shades, pegged trousers, painted ties, wrecked leather jackets.  Mix and match.  Then along came 'mod' and a new, more pathetic form of snobbery came into existence, perpetuated by people who wore parkas but caught the bus home.  Time to get out.  I moved away; sharpened my intellect; starting going to see plays by Pinter and Orton; reading widely, preparing for higher education. 
My introduction to Ivy was very gradual: a BD here, a pair of chinos there.  My father's American friend called it 'preppy' and couldn't understand why I'd be interested.  To me, then, it was just a clean, dressed down look.  I stepped it up eventually but am now toning it down again.  People still think I'm snobbish about it, but they tend to smile indulgently rather than grow angry.

Last edited by Alex Roest (2009-04-30 02:01:32)

Interesting how unsnobbish John Simons is.  He'll willingly share information.  Never seems concerned to keep things to himself.  I've been steered in the right direction on a number of occasions.

Mm - wine snobbery, to use just one example, is infuriating (not that it means anything to me, as a non-drinker): its adherents look like those silly c****s on these effing antiques programmes I dare say.  There - that's me culturally stereotyping and having a great big chip on my shoulder!

Speaking of Hewitt, though, check out Patrick Uden in 'Soul Stylists'.  He says it with more authority than I ever can.  I wasn't there.  Sucking my own thumb, no doubt.

Last edited by Just Jim (2009-04-30 05:08:39)

Last edited by Prof Kelp (2009-04-30 05:30:41)

Wise words, PK.

I'm actually beyond the 'Snob' tag now that I've been dubbed a Fascist (Well... 'Russell' was...).

All of this feeds itself I think. 'Trads' knew nothing & were so full of themselves that we wanted to spit on them and so their snobbery made snobs of us.  What a world!

Everything remains of interest though. Other people's fantasies can tell you a lot. As for me, I've just got a low BS threshold. When I see somebody posturing I feel the need to call them on it.

How are we ever going to talk sense if we spend our time talking about 'the Tradly way of life'?

A sane man would ignore it all.

No, no, no D&F, they're all excellent points to be making. 

You know what you know.  You're willing to learn from others.  You have a sense of proportion.  You're willing to share and inform. 

Miles could be pretty unpleasant, too - as he was to the young Valerie Wilmer.