Last edited by 1966 (2009-05-20 05:55:07)

'66: a lovely pyjama-collared shirt: I am envious.

Russ: a very sensible post and practically a clarion call for the way forward.

Personally I love new things -

Not too long ago Chris_H sent me an original late 60's fully lapped Herringbone Sack - New to me and a real eye opener. It wasn't Brooks or Press or Chipp or anyone, it was just a fantastic jacket.

So my new is somebody else's old.

Fair enough.

Hey Bulldog (geddit)... Looking at some of the hideous patchwork monstrosities on display in the Andover Shop no wonder they are are not increasing sales. Only the most  tasteless, loaded American could dream of sporting such a harlequin rag bag of a jacket!

AQG, you are a rare dry wit. You know exactly the right ammount of salt you need to pinch in regards to my remarks.

I'm grateful for you all contributing to this debate.  I'd begun to think Brooks very unfairly written off, and we're well aware they're not the only ones to blow it.  Paul Stuart are not exactly wildly exciting, either.  Expensive American clothing but pretty certainly not Ivy. More European (which does not, of course, mean 'English' in any sense).  Find an item of 60s Brooks, though, and you've got smart (IMO).

Off the top of my poor old cricket bat beaten head...

Brooks played with an English accent.
Press to me seemed more 'American'. But I wonder what I mean by that? The Crimson Shop had that quality too. Ditto the Harvard Coop.
Paul Stuart, Chipp, and The Andover were more Euro - And ever more 'Luxe' as time went by...

- But that's only my view.

Brooks today seems very 'Euro' as do PS & The Andover. Press just feels odd to me right now... 'Pastiche' is often the kind of word I throw about at times like this...

I never used to really like the Anglo inflection in Brooksian Ivy, but today I'd take it over the Euro Luxe strain any day.

- But that's only my view.

Best -

Complexities, as ever, abound.  Englishmen trying to look American, American outfitters wanting to sell to American men an English style.  Why else the regimental tie etc?  I don't entirely disapprove - not at all - but...  but...  the Brit Ivy Leaguer who is consciously attempting to look as though he knows the New England landscape and the choicer campuses may not altogether thank the clothier who...  oh, you all know what I'm getting at...  As for the 'European' look, well, I wear it, almost by accident, but I'd rather wear it knowingly, like the Weston suede hand-made penny loafers I just bought.  Or not wear it at all.  But when it comes to yer actual 'English', a very little bit will suffice:  Grenfell, Viyella (almost an American classic?), Alan Paine (ah, but the vintage stuff is as complex as the Baracuta G9 in its meanderings)...  No wonder Paddy says clothing followed the trade routes...

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiment expressed above, I do think Brooks still occasionally go beyond just the unlined Alden LHS and the must-iron slim-fit and regular OCBDs.

They have over the past few years bought us both cord and oxford cloth sacks, admittedly the former was made in Thailand, but mine is cut pretty well all the same.

Going back a few years they also sold some Italian-made wool herringbone sacks in brown/black, grey/black and olive. These were pretty well made with the correct Brooks details. I found the shoulder a little wide, but that was easily corrected by my tailor.

If they could keep a few these type of items plus the US-made poplin suits in regular rotation I'd be a happy man.

As they now own Southwick they certainly have the means to do it.

Last edited by Chris_H (2009-05-20 14:17:50)

I was in 346 Madison the other day to pick up some shirts and examined the black fleece stuff for the first time. What I liked best were the ties, in terms of patterns and width. $150 is an absurd price though, considering they are basically imitations of Brooks vintage ties and can be found on ebay for about 5 bucks. What struck me most about the entire collection is the cost. Ivy clothes, at their core, are well made, functional clothes that shouldn't break the bank to buy. Paying nearly $3000 for a suit, regardless of how well its made, seems out of whack to me. I didnt care for the little extras, like the loop on the back of the collar or the ribbon belt material lining the area on the end of the sleeves.

More generally it kind of irks me that Thom Browne has somehow gotten credit for resurrecting the ivy look, when it really never went away (at least not in NYC). Thats probably a bad attitude to have, but if Im being honest its how I feel.

What annoys me more is that they moved the MTM shirt dept to the 5th floor, and created a ridiculous environment including a bar, I think a pool table, and god knows what else. Again, Brooks totally miscalculated what most men want. In their relentless attempt to create a lifestyle brand they have ignored that most men who order shirts like to walk in quickly, pick them up and leave. I dont need to fucking shoot a game of pool with their employees.

What is disapearing, at least to me, is how ivy style often provides the foundation for all the stuff that actually matters. Going into Brooks to pick up my shirts, shooting the shit with Mr. Davis and then when Im on my way he gives me my shirts. Its almost like the shirts are just ancillary to the interaction between the two of us, if that makes sense. Years from now, I will remember the conversations I had with the guy, not necessarily the shirts, and thats the way it ought to be.

You can see black fleece coming from a mile away. The flashy accents, the high cost, the extreme cut, its obvious and screams for attention. You never want to be the guy that they can see coming from a mile away. You want to be the guy they never see coming. Ivy provides that, black fleece does not.