An interesting point raised by Mr. Horace at the end of the locker-room slapstick that was the 'Stop-Thief' thread dealt with the nature of on-line personas.
I think it's a really interesting area and would be interested in any views on it. It would be a shame to bury a good point just because it appeared on a bad thread.
There is a sense in which most on-line appearances are performances. Presentations of self.
Since day one the internet has been the playground of Trolls, Alts, Sock Puppets etc. That is the nature of the medium - it is inherently imperfect due to the imperfect people who post on it along with all the regular folk.
The motivation of the internet liar is an interesting area, surely?
Speaking as an ex-troll, I used to like to fool around and to lead people into temptation and then chuckle at the results. Pretty basic stuff. 'Dumb fun' I always thought, and always with the emphasis on the word 'dumb'.
But what of the internet persona which is someone living an on-line life to compensate for a real life which they find... not to their liking?
'Pathological' is a strong word, but I'm interested in the on-line people who write about their extensive knowledge and wardrobes to impress and to become popular in an on-line community maybe to make themselves feel a bit happier about the reality of their lives. They post about illustrious forebares because the pain of illegitimacy (for a very crude example) haunts them.
I often get the sense that I am reading posts by these people elsewhere on the net. They are inconsistent in their stories, they make mistakes about facts they should know, they have the wrong 'tone' for that which they are pretending to be.
There is a sense that this is really positive. It must do the posters a lot of good, allowing them to 'live the dream', if only in a virtual 'life'.
... But it does clog up the MBs with mistakes, misinformation, and much too much fantasy.
So what's all this to do with style?
I guess it's an extention of the internet fraud's personal style that they create their dream-persona to post as online. On the net they can be who they'd like to be. Harmles fun for them. Their style can extend far beyond reality over the net.
It's those who follow them as style-leaders that I feel a little sorry for. They are being duped.
More muddy thinking from me, as ever. Clearer thoughts from anyone else?
"Miles"
Oh - And keep it vague, eh? The concept is of interest, not the naming of names.
My favorite is the chap with a closet filled with "bespoke" suits (an over-used message board word) which, except for a couple exceptions, are poorly-fitting, poorly-made POSes and, for reasons only he knows, does not wish to inform the MB public of such. Perhaps he's afraid of tarnishing his faux image as an authority on clothes LOL
I can't disagree with you as there are plenty of freaks and fakers on the internet. However, it can also be hard to communicate the subtleties of your personality via a disjointed series of posts on a message board. Take as an example emoticons, which grew out of the bandwidth constrained world of text-only communication. Farce, satire, and irony, among others, can be hard to ascertain without the backup of body language and facial expression.
Someone I know who has had encounters with a few MB inhabitants, sees them as rather peculiar and inelegant nerdy types, in contrast to the fora images they have cultivated, or perhaps images others conjur up (Or maybe both). They are living in the past in their worshipful admiration of Savile Row, in particular, not recognizing that SR's glory days are well in the past. I guess we all need something to cling to.
I have been watching with morbid fascination as my wife has become obsessed with Urban Baby. One of the amazing things to watch is how often she will just make something up to be provocative, or to make a point. It seems like the entire point of that particular board is to play fast and loose with reality, or take a break from it as it were.
I have no idea what this post is about. Personas? Internet frauds? Great Scott!
I think it clearly fills a need, doesn't it?
'A break from reality' is a really good way of putting it, Mrwynn.
I think it's pretty harmless and the nature of the net almost encourages it, but it does get odd when it goes too far (look who's talking).
We probably all have a list in the back of our minds of suspicious posters. I can think of a guy who bluffs on the net and is forever being called on his stories. He is now in the situation of having to back everything up with yet more and more bluffing just to justify himself. He's caught in this never-ending fantasy world for as long as he carries on posting under the same log-in. He's completely trapped in it and yet he carries on. The persona he has created must mean so much to him that he is now literally fighting to defend it and keep it rolling on.
THAT I find fascinating.
I don't know if internet Sociology is yet a field of study, but there must be rich-pickings for a social scientist here. Other guys caught out on a story will mumble that they must have been mistaken, this guy either goes all silent as if being questioned is beneath him or starts making up secondary stories to back up the first. The whole thing just spins on & on and the MB he posts on fills up with ever more misinformation.
That's only one example and probably an extreme one (I didn't make him up btw, he is out there). The motivation of the fantasist is what I'd love to understand. He isn't a Troll, there is no punchline to what he does, it can only be for his own satisfaction.
It's an interesting phenomenon.
Anyone else know of any other extreme cases?
Please mention no names, obviously.
Why do you think people do it?
To drag this back to the arena of 'Style' I wonder if the internet bluffer is in a way an ultimate stylist - Their love of style is such that their own life, income, experience, or whatever is just not enough for them. They maybe feel so constrained by their reality that they have to soar off into fantasy to really be able to express themselves. The reality of their wardrobes and knowledge just leaves them unsatisfied, and they have to imbue their lives with yet more and more style by just plain making it up.
Maybe?
Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-25 05:25:29)
I locked this because it was getting out of hand and then unlocked it because there is some artistic merit. If we keep to the philosophy of the Internet allowing people to assert that they represent ideas they do not and variations, OK. But if it degenerates into "you know who, is you know what", then I’m deleting it. I have been on a lot of different forums, sports, politics, religion, and chat occasionally dealing with complete nutters. Some of these people were out of prison for violent crimes others were Hackers with a chip on their shoulders, and some of them were fanatics but none of them have been as extreme or rude or nasty as some of the persons I’ve met in the style or clothes community over the last year. I am not exaggerating. I suppose it’s because deep down the former category all stood for something even if they were disturbed and the troublemakers in this community do not and know that they do not.
Personally, I am doing this for fun, and ultimately for myself. If it helps others great, it's nice to contribute. But the forum is for play not for hurt.
I think I make myself crystal.
Thank you for letting this happen, FNB... (If we can do it)...
What I'm trying to work towards is the idea of the Virtual or Cyber Dandy.
As ever I'm fighting against language here - Internet fraud, Internet bluffer, etc. All miss the mark and spoil the point I wish I could make...
Mallarme called Villiers de L'Isle-Adam "The man who never was, save in his dreams".
THAT is my internet 'bluffer' - a cyber creation / projection of self which needs the freedom of the net to flourish. Everyday life is too confining for this creature. I see him as bang-up-to-date and a new and rare animal. Not at all a Troll, but one who indulges in a Dandyism of ideas and creates himself as he wishes he could be.
In time the breed will be perfected. At the moment all we see is bad fakes. But the concept of the Cyber Peacock is here in embryo.
THAT'S interesting (At least to me) and that is the animal that I'd like to understand. More than just a fantasist it is a 'person' that perfectly exists online, and online only.
Fuck, I wish I was clever. All this crap of mine is such hard work.
Miles.
Edit: It is the online persona that is really interesting & 'real'. Not the 'faker' behind it... As ever language eludes whatever meaning I'm aiming for here...
Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-25 11:07:52)
In response to FNB's comment, try out Urban Baby if you want to see some nastiness. But in all seriousness, my theory as to the poor behavior of some style posters is that style is a very personal matter. How we choose to present ourselves to the world is core to our self image and in many cases self worth. If an individual wants to exist as something they are not, I imagine that must be a difficult person to be and they will act out in all sorts of bad ways.
It's only clothes after all, right?
Too lazy to check the quote - "The clothing oft proclaims the man"...
... But my Cyber Dandy wants to do just that - proclaim himself through his clothing. And if he lacks the clothing in reality then who's gonna know on the net?
Equally other kinds of forum could allow a person to project themselves as they'd like to be (the owner of a vast stable of vintage cars, or whatever... Cars are kept in stables, right?), but I think, as mrwynn says, style forums are that bit more personal. The pose seems 'realer' when it deals with personal style and presentation of self rather than other material possessions...
A Cyber Dandy may well be difficult in real life but endlessly entertaining & engaging on the net because THAT is where he lives...
I love that Mallarme quote, btw.
M.
Very true, Mr. Grayson.
There may be a streak of envy in my imagined Cyber Dandy, but I think his motivation is likely to be more positive than that. I see him as one who surrounds himself in his imagined persona with all the things he loves, creating a whole lifestyle for his online alter ego that he would love to live in reality.
The more I think about this the more creative it becomes. The perfect Cyber Dandy could be quite a work of art. Born out of whatever desire to impress, the creation of this perfect person could be an ultimate form of self-expression - an entirely aesthetic being, uncompromised by reality like the rest of us are.
Purely art for art's sake.
An ultimate triumph of style over substance.
Good point, H.
I wonder if my imagined Cyber Dandy guy could spin a good tale and maybe create a market?
If enough people bought into his fantasy could a demand for goods he recommended be created?
Having created himself as the oracle on whatever style he favours could he then influence the demographics of the style by overshadowing all other voices?
... Not sure... He couldn't fool all of the people all of the time... Surely?
The fantasy would have to be a very seductive one for that to work...
Interesting stuff!
Last edited by Miles Away (2006-09-26 01:48:10)
I'm fascinated by how someone can position himself on Internet message board fora (Is this redundant?) as an expert in an area of endeavor and people believe him simply because...he says so...without any objective empirical evidence.
Last edited by Horace (2006-10-01 02:36:20)
Some of the more curious personalities are those amateur message board tailors who dispense advice to others on achieving properly fitting suits: "Move the front buttons to the left by 1/4 inch" "Take in 1/8" on the left side, let out the right side by 3/8 inch" "Rotate the shoulders 5/16 inch" "A higher gorge would be more flattering to you" "A lower gorge would be better" "Higher button stance is called for" "More drape, less drape..." On and on. Of course, they're utterly unqualified to offer such guidance, but nevertheless feel compelled to do so. If medical advice were given out by fora residents impersonating doctors, there would be consequences, but assisting in botching someone's suit is rather innocuous.
You can tell me... you're Ted aren't you?
Happy days are here again!